Impact decertification?

[jlwhorf]

Fwiw, some racers believe SFI is a scam. I don't have any real knowledge re belt or netting degradation but 24 months strikes some as too short-lived.

Especially when SFI belts need to be replaced every 2 years and FIA belts every 5, when they are made from exactly the same material.

[breakaway500]

I buy FIA rated belts for the 5 year life span. Some sanctioning bodies in the USA do not recognize FIA rated equipment.It must be about the testing procedure that FIA uses,which seems to be fine for Europe etc,but not for many in the USA.Is SFI a scam? Well...if someone was not testing safety equipment, it would be left up to the drivers wearing them to test...not something I want to do...so I like to think they are doing a worthy task in a professional manner,and worth the extra money to purchase.

[jlwhorf]

I believe the discussion was the way that SFI handles things.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthr ... post250234

[breakaway500]

Interesting discussion over there on Apexspeed. This comment was a bit disturbing:

"I don't know about the inner workings of SFI but considering how easily IMPACT decided that counterfeiting fitted their business model I would be very nervous about any of their products.

Counterfeit HANS anchors. Check
Counterfeit SFI tags. Check
Counterfeit NOMEX. Well who really knows.

Isn't the chinese flame retardant material nearly as good for half the price?

I would not take Bill Simpson's word for it considering their current counterfeiting activities."

Being a businessman myself,I can understand the need to watch the bottom line..but not at the respect of the rules in place.No matter how this ends..it is not good for the whole sport..

[jlwhorf]

Also:

Wrong thread used in making drag race firesuits. Check

[WillM]

Especially when SFI belts need to be replaced every 2 years and FIA belts every 5, when they are made from exactly the same material.

I do not think that is correct. FIA belts must be made of polyester, where as SFI belts can be made of nylon, which is cheaper. Every SFI harness I'm aware of is made of nylon. Polyester is much better at dealing with UV rays. Nylon dries and cracks much easier. I had SFI belts for years, and replaced them because they became dry & faded. I switched to FIA-certified belts years ago and will not be going back to SFI.

OEM seatbelts are made of polyester, and FIA belts feel very similar in construction. Despite being twice as old as some of the dried and faded SFI belts I've thrown away, my FIA belts still look and feel new!


I had a pair of Impact gloves years ago. I'm glad I never bought any of their other products. Regardless of whether or not the products are "safe" or "certified", it is clear that they can be a deceitful group.

[chaos4NH]

It has yet to be PROVEN that Impact used/uses conterfeit SFI tags.

[boltonite]

FYI, from someone closer to the action wrt Impact and SFI:

Here are a few of the basics about SFI certification, testing, and
certification labels:

SFI does all of the certification testing in house in their labs in Southern
California. All except for Head and Neck restraint system testing which must
be done on a dynamic sled capable of a specific pulse at 70g. I have visited
their lab and it is well staffed and loaded with test equipment needed to
certify products for their various standards.

As a manufacturer using SFI certification, we must submit all of our
products (seat belts and nets) including each different version or
configuration of parts, different webbing, adjusters, locking mechanisms
etc. every two years. Belts are tested on a body block machine to specific
loads. The webbing is also tested for abrasion resistance. All mounting
hardware options must also be tested. Once all products are submitted, and
assuming they pass, we are permitted to purchase certification labels from
SFI to be applied to all of our products. For seatbelts with the 16.1
standard, the testing costs are quite reasonable. The certification labels
(3 needed per belt) are less than $.20 each!. We do not pay any additional
fee to "belong to SFI". The testing process and costs for the 16.5 belt
standard (NASCAR standard) are much higher than 16.5 but the labels are
still quite reasonable.

Tests for the Side and Interior nets are similar to the seat belts.
Certainly reasonable.

SFI reserves the right to purchase any of our certified products from any of
our dealers or retail outlets at any time. They do this periodically to
check our products to ensure that they continue to be made in accordance
with the products submitted for certification.

SFI certification does not add a significant cost to the manufacturing of
each product relative to the "protection" that you receive by successfully
meeting the standard.

The annual cost to BMW CCA as a sanctioning organization is VERY REASONABLE,
not more than a couple of sets of really nice (SCHROTH) seat belts. The cost
is determined by the number of licensed racers, and the standards that you
wish to reference. Much larger sanctioning bodies pay much more and specify
far more SFI specifications.

Specifications are developed at the request of the sanctioning
organizations. SFI develops the test plan and test tools and devices, and
the final standard which is approved by the sanctioning organizations. Once
the standard is developed, manufacturers may elect to participate in making
products to each standard. From that point further, the manufacturers vote
on changes to the standard at meetings generally held every other year in
conjunction with the PRI show in December. Sanctioning organization will
generally be present at these meetings and request/suggest changes that they
would like to see.

Certainly the process is not perfect and I may not always agree with all of
the decisions. Yes I would like to see longer life on some of the nets and
seat belts - I have suggested this at several meetings - but I also
understand why some of the dating issues are as stated. For example: a very
significant number of the seat belts sold under the SFI 16.1 seat belt
standard are sold to dirt track racers and off road racers who expose the
belts to extensive sun, regular washings with water, and exposure to lots of
other crap. I have seen many belts in these applications that are total junk
in less than a year. If you don't like the 2 year rule, buy an FIA belt
which has a minimum life of 5 years even if you purchase it on December
31st. Unfortunately FIA does not have an interior or window net standard to
reference.

The recent change in Club Racing rules was not the result of a change by SFI
but only an adjustment of our own rules to comply with the long standing
dating requirements of the SFI standards that we have specified and agreed
to abide by. SFI notified SCCA, BMW CCA, and several other sanctioning
organizations that superseding the SFI standard with different dating would
prevent SFI from assisting in the defense of a lawsuit of a product that was
out of certification at the date of the incident. Any reasonable lawyer
could easily claim negligence by the Club not following our own specified
standard. You Club Race VOLUNTEERS were not willing to assume that
additional risk.

SFI is a non-profit organization and I don't believe that anyone is getting
rich from the sanctioning fees, testing, and certification labels. SFI
fulfills an important service to the racing community without which there
would be very little assurance that the safety equipment you are using will
work when you most need it.

Safety has dramatically improved in the last 8 to 10 years and SFI has been
an important part of that. As a racer, if I have to spend $500 a year on
safety stuff - it is not much different than an insurance policy you might
buy every year to help protect against "the big one". The liability
protection is also a great bonus - especially for all volunteer organization
like us. None of the BMW CCA Club Racing staff is paid. As a volunteer, I
want all the legal protection I can get so that my "hobby" does not
jeopardize my livelihood.

The issue with Impact is (to my memory) unprecedented. None of us have any
real details other than what is in the official communications released by
SFI. Impact has had a few serious "issues" in the last year with drivers
suits, and "counterfeit" HANS posts. I am sure that SFI deliberated quite
hard prior to making this decision. I know many racers that just purchased
new Impact suits and belts. I also know dealers with tens of thousands of
dollars of inventory. It will be a very costly problem for many people.
Please note that IMPACT helmets ARE NOT affected by this ruling.

I do what I do because I am passionate about it. If someone gets hurt, it is
not just their family that is affected. It is their fellow racers, the tech
steward who looked at the car, the other racers that might have been
involved, coworkers, ..... If we as a club can specify reasonable safety
requirements to avoid even one serious injury - it is worth it. All of us at
Club Racing are very sensitive to racers budgets. We are very careful not to
add any costs without quite a bit of serious thought and consideration.

Thank you for the band width and I hope that this addresses many of the
questions and comments posted in recent weeks. If anyone has any questions,
please feel free to contact me.

[breakaway500]

Impact risked/ruined its reputation over 20 cent labels??

[jlwhorf]

Especially when SFI belts need to be replaced every 2 years and FIA belts every 5, when they are made from exactly the same material.

I do not think that is correct. FIA belts must be made of polyester, where as SFI belts can be made of nylon, which is cheaper. Every SFI harness I'm aware of is made of nylon. Polyester is much better at dealing with UV rays. Nylon dries and cracks much easier. I had SFI belts for years, and replaced them because they became dry & faded. I switched to FIA-certified belts years ago and will not be going back to SFI.

The reason I said that was my experience with gforce products. Their "pull up" lap, camlock belts are SFI only, and their "pull down" lap, camlock belts are SFI/FIA certified. They are both the same price, so I don't believe there is any difference in the material. Therefore I went with the FIA version. It is nice that gforce dosen't/didn't try to recoupe the $10,000 FIA certification cost to thier customers.

Personally I believe that a 2 year life for belts is too short, if you buy a set of SFI straps at the beginning of the season, you get three seasons out of them. For me, that can be less that a dozen uses.

[breakaway500]

Why do they make both pull up and pull down harnesses? They achieve the same end result,with the same effort..so why make both?

[jlwhorf]

I don't have an answer for that one. I do have a set of pull up Simpsons in my T/A and they are a PIA to adjust while I'm in the seat.

[Dave_G]

Why do they make both pull up and pull down harnesses? They achieve the same end result,with the same effort..so why make both?

Because depending on your car, it's not the same effort at all. I bought the G-Force pull-down harness specifically because they carry the 5-year FIA certification. But in my Ultra-Shield seat in my Miata, the pull-down harnesses are a PITA to adjust. The pull-up ones would be much easier, but to me it's not worth it for the expense of replacing them 2.5 times as often.

I can easily see why they make both. What I don't see is why G-Force's pull-down harnesses carry an FIA certification while the pull-up ones don't.

[WillM]

What Dave said. Pull-up belts work great in my car, but pull-downs are better for others. Then there is the crew factor, where some people have help strapping in, and some people don't.

Another reason why I like the Schroth FIA belts. The belts are user-configurable to either pull-up or pull-down.

[John F]

The Gforce FIA rated harness is only available in camlock. My latch/link ones are only rated to SFI, so they are recouping some of the cost.