i just got a new track car

[962porsche]

there is no need to point fingers and say he started it ! i feal bad that it did start and its not the first posting i did that after i posted it i wish i did not ! becouse of the complexity of the rules we need to hash this out . wating untill the fall would not be the time to start doing it . it would be better to do it now and do the rule change over next years winter brake . nate has a hell job with comscc and does a hell of a good job for comscc .

[breakaway500]

What is a "non production based" car? Seriously,I don't understand what Will is trying to say. Are we talking about cars that are not produced by a manufacturer?

[DanDarcy]

Dave I'm not pointing fingers just pointing out that a post about a new car turned into a rule discussion. I agree that rules are an ongoing discussion and we change them in the fall. Maybe we should change prepared classes to be by engine displacement. ie. 1 to 1000 cc, pd, -- 1001 -2000cc, pc---2001-4000 cc-pb----4001 cc and up pa. forced induction move you up one class.

[962porsche]

do i want to drive my car around with a big PU on the side of it ? no ! maybe an O (open class) it would make sense to split cars up by power to weight and with aero. moves you up a class . as for production how would you determine that ? when it comes down to it my diasio is a production car with a chassis # produced by the manufacturer .

[breakaway500]

Well..that is why I am asking the question. What is a "non production based" car? Is it a car built out in ones garage,or are we trying to say "non production" means it is not made by the millions in a factory? I agree,the Diasio IS a production built car.So are all the Radicals.For that matter,so are most Formula cars.You can buy a ready made Stohr F1000 today,and have it shipped to your house,press the button and you are motoring.Having been built by the millions means it was MASS produced in some factory,somewhere.

[jlwhorf]

That means that my Red Devil is a production car, because it was "factory built" and the total number of them built is in the thousands too. My stock car is home built, but is dimensionally and technically equivalent to a GT1 car. All I have to say is wow, talk about a thread gone wild.

[betelgeuse]

When are you guys going to stop trying to convince yourself and everybody else that you have somthing other than a purpose built race/track car and should be running in a lower class than you should be?

Greg

[nateh]

I think Will meant not a production road car.

The SCCA offers some useful wordage we might consider adopting. We currently use it indirectly via our reference to SCCA's classes.

Excerpted from the GCR, section 9.1.9. SPORTS RACING CATEGORY

The SCCA Sports Racing Category shall be for automobiles which are
designed and constructed for road racing competition, offering provisions
for driver and a passenger, or driver alone (single-seater). They shall
conform to the following requirements.
...
It is the intention of the Club Racing Board to never classify a replica or
derivative of a mass produced road car body in the sports racing classes.
These classes are intended for open and/or closed sports racer/sports
prototype bodywork.

This language is the basis of my understanding of the classification of all the cars we have discussed recently.

[jlwhorf]

All joking aside, here is my 2 cents.

P should have no wording regarding "production road cars". We have plenty of slots in SS, ST, and SP for that.
My rule set would be the following:

FP - Single seat formula and sports racers

PA - 8 or more cyl, forced induced 6 cyl and rotary

PB - 6 cyl and forced 4 cyl

PC - NA 4 cyl

Let's remove the special exception cars next season, because there is little enough interest that warrants the effort. If someone shows up in an FV or SRF and only have a rain light, they must run in FP anyway. F440 is no longer a class so anyone who shows up with an updated car, it will be an F500. Other than with in our comunity, it would be very doubtful if any one who owns a competitive sports racer or a sports prototype will want to run with a point buy club anyway.

[breakaway500]

^ That classification system will be extremely hard on anyone who has a street vehicle that does not fit in SP. Simple extreme Example...you put fender flares on your basically stock Miata..you will be running against Radical SR3's,capable of 1:11 lap times. I don't think Prepared can be that generic for classification based solely on engine displacement and not qualifying for a "lower" class as the only criteria for landing you in Prepared,up against purpose built race cars.

Why not have two classes of Formula, and two Prepared classes? That way,no more new classes, numerically.
FA could be any purpose built race car, with an engine size greater than 1.9L
FB could be any purpose built race car 1.9L and below,normally aspirated only.
P1 could be all the current PA and PB classes
P2 all current PC cars.
Any reclassifications by discretion of the the board of stewards.
Yes,a few people would have to buy some new decals...but..it might work.

This would make two classes for street based cars and two classes for purpose built race cars.
Tubular "stock" cars would run in P1 or P2 based on the same engine requirements.

[jlwhorf]

Mark, I know that the fender flare rule is not fair if you put them on a low performance car, but it is still low performance car. Alex and James L are the only ones with fender flares and neither one are lacking performance. Richard could easily put his car back to SP specs.

[WillM]

Production, as in what I've always thought of a "production car" in its classical sense. Perhaps the term has never been defined, but I've always taken it to be a passenger-based street-legal car which could be purchased, tltled, registered, insured, and driven on US roadways legally. That would include everything from a Ford Focus, to an Ariel Atom, to a MazdaSpeed Miata.

The classification I suggested above does not change the P rules for "production" cars, kit cars, etc. Its intent was to slot non-production cars into a class where they could be more competitive. If the rule doesn't accomplish that, fine, state why and let's try to form a better rule.

The goal of this thread, I think, should be to come to a better understanding of where we want the P rules to go.

Classing one or two specific cars and then calling for an end of discussion is a total waste of all of the energy and thought so many have voiced on this forum. If these discussions took place last fall, it seems to me, the rules would not be as they are written now. They would be "better". Even if the rules were exactly as they are now, there would have been a better understanding of them.

David, I wouldn't want "PU" on the side of my car either, and while "PO" might be better (and yet again, the irony of PO'ed is hard to miss!), it seems that "P?" is most fitting (at this stage of the game).

[breakaway500]

Thanks for the clairification,Will.It is best not to ass-ume anything in regards to rules,regulations etc. Things can be said in one way and mean exactly the other.
I am also glad to be able to banter ideas about on an open forum.Communication between all the members of a club is the key to an upfront and fair discussion.

[cuda6666]

What class for my new Atom killer Alfa race car?

http://www.henstoothdiscs.com/K/alfa.bmp

[WillM]

What class for my new Atom killer Alfa race car?

http://www.henstoothdiscs.com/K/alfa.bmp

Bumper car? Are you going racing with the SCCA?

By the way, I totally hate the fender-flare rule, but that is a different discussion.