i just got a new track car

[breakaway500]

Most races (and championships) are won with strategy. Right or wrong,it is winning. Anyone could enter Formula class. Anyone.

Let's look at "potential" for a moment. Lets say that we decide to classify the RF of Marcus.

These time results are from the last COM event...FP,


291 Marcus Barrow 1:26.763 1:24.970 1:24.272 1:24.272 2-T Van Dieman RF-78
2911 Jonathan Barrow 1:31.558 1:31.585 1:33.834 1:31.558 3 Van Dieman RF-78

For argument purposes we will say that car #2911 becomes the example car,and it ran similar times all year.
It gets "moved" to PC because the times are more consistent with that class.(actually slower..)

Now,car #291,another RF,shows up for a COM event and enters his RF in PC,because that is where they (RF)were moved. He now runs a 1:24.2, which is substantially faster than the absolutely IDENTICAL #2911 RF car.

How on Earth can you use potential to classify a car when the "potential" time spread could be as large as the above example,7 seconds or more??

So,what is the real potential of a RF? Is it faster than 1:24.? I honestly don't know.

I do believe we have to revisit Scotts post for the answer:

" the fact that a potentially fast car is not driven fast doesn't mean it should be reclassified- it means you either sucked on that day, you consistenly suck, the car is not well prepped or the track would only "give" so much that day with that combo. Classification does not guarantee competitiveness."

I am in NO WAY attacking either of the Barrows in using this as an example. (Just using actual times to prove a point.)

I am merely trying to demonstrate that it will be next to impossible to reclassify every car competitively by time, because of the huge variable behind the wheel.

[horizenjob]

Thanks for your patience, Nate. You probably feel like that guy with all the arrows in his back!

We seem to be able to put some of these cars in PB or PC, but it seems harder to find ones that go in PA. Two people approached me about running club ford type cars at the last event. One had one in his basement and the other was thinking of making the switch from car "z" to a club ford. These entry level formula type cars are a lot of fun. I think they are very rewarding for the drivers too.

So I hope we do get more participation - it will only help with these issues. I just hope we can find a path that attracts people and doesn't discourage them.

[horizenjob]

Oh man please don't post those times. The humilation will never end.

Our car was really sick, so they say very little. JJ was spooked because he slid off the track just before his run.

I don't object to times from SCCA being to used to measure potential. In the case of FF it used to be one of the most competitive classes, so those numbers really are the peak. There was 9 seconds between the NCF and an Atlantic though and that is a big gap. I would be surprised if good PA cars couldn't beat or be an even match with a Club Ford. Club Ford are older Formula Fords with outboard suspension and less aero. When I was young my times were near the records and I still got beat.

Somehow it is less demoralizing to get beat by a Corvette then an Atlantic though...

I'd like to see some more times posted. Even if we only run chicanes the other configs would be valid for comparison...

[nateh]

Mark, you're right about the difficulty of determining a car's potential. That's why I refer to SCCA lap records rather than COM lap times. That's also why the actual references to CSR, DSR, FF, NCF, etc are so important, and that's why they are included in the rules. Marcus and Jonathan's actual lap times can be ignored, because better data are available. So we can discuss which class NCF belongs in, and the resulting answer should be fair for any entrant with a real NCF car, including the Barrows.

For a car without a relevant SCCA record, we have to dig deeper to assess performance potential. Lap times for a knwon good driver, with a car in good shape, are theoretically helpful if they are available, but not necessarily conclusive. Power to weight is a good place to start (and it usually works pretty well for the stock classes), but then there's aero and c.g., and on and on. Critical details. We are dealing with "specials", not built to particular SCCA rules.

To the extent a more simplistic approach works, that's great. But if that's all we can manage, and the result is we discourage rather than welcome, then we pay a price. The price can be counted in lost revenue for the club, as well as fun and interesting cars to gawk at and drivers to hang around with.

[breakaway500]

To ignore the Barrows own discrepancy in times,at an actual COM event,using the same car,on the same track,the same day,is to ignore the prime reason that using lap times to reclassify a car is wrong;The driver variable.
SSCA times are probably taken during lapping events (races) and not necessarily time trials.They may show an example of a very good driver on a very good day being consistent. Or,it could be the worst day of their life on track.However,it is actual data.
A car (or driver) may not reach their ultimate performance levels in 4 laps.This does not show true lap "potential".
Using COM times is a good indicator of what actually happens at one of our events.If you took every COM driver,and used only one car,and ran time trials with it,I am sure the spread of times would be at least 10 seconds. There is no way to factor out the driver variable when attempting to use times to reclassify a given car.

[brucesallen]

COM has and will continue to use SCCA record times to classify cars. http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/crtrnhms-ninsin.pdf
COM record times in the past for FF, FC, FE and Club Ford have been very close to these National records at NHMS.

[breakaway500]

I understand the need to use officially recorded times to classify cars. However,a reclassification or move to another class because of poor performance (or superior performance) by an individual driving a classified car should be done with extreme caution,or avoided. I guess that is the best way to sum up how I feel.

Sometimes things get so twisted you're not quite sure how to express your point of view...

[962porsche]

all right i'm back from NJ i had to get the first of two 944 down there . nate i was thinking SPU but writing SPO as far as i know the only difference is the motor size spu up to 2.5 liters? spo over 2.5 liters ? lap times at NHMS . bruce 1:11's , Mark's atom 1:16's , Nate & John 1:17's , J.B. & marcus 1:24's , J. Whorf 1:28's , my thinking was that PA thru PC were for steel body sedan's , coupe's and so on . not monocoque and tube chassis cars . they were to be put in FP . john whorf was moved out of FP becouse he was to slow and yet he was the class champ. at what point will a car be to slow for FP ? times under 1:15's ? becouse time attack's are more like qualifing for a wheel to wheel race . is taking lap records the best way to come up with a formula for placing cars with comscc ? now bruce did a 1:11 in his car by the posting bruce did with the scca lap records a DSR car did a 1:11 too . how many clean laps did the drivers have to post a fast time with the scca ?

[horizenjob]

my thinking was that PA thru PC were for steel body sedan's , coupe's and so on . not monocoque and tube chassis cars . they were to be put in FP

Cars are grouped according to potential, at least traditionally. Cars that can run PA times should run in PA. If we divide things on frame type we land up with more overlapping classes with fewer people.We might have overlap between street and prepared cars, more then we used to - but I think adding that to the discussion woulod just make things more difficult.

When we ran eight years ago we were something like 8 seconds a lap faster ( North Chicane thought, don't know what difference that makes ), and that was only the second time in 15 years I'd been in the car. Using the same tires at the last event didn't work that well for us though. The plan had been just to run conservatively and get to see the track again and shake down the car. We should have run much lower tire pressures then we did, but I was worried about that and keeping with the conservative theme. Bad choice as it turns out. The car was at the limit just going in a straight line on the big straight.

The reason we use SCCA lap records is that the classes are related and they have a much larger pool of drivers.

So if my car is a tube frame special, I've been thinking about putting it on a diet. Also I'd prefer it closer to original configuration, it's had stuff added over the years. So the minimum class weight is gone now and I can remove the steel flooring used for ballast and replace with aluminum, I can make structural panel connections, upgrade to a 5 speed transmission and lose the reverse gear, aluminum calipers and hubs with smaller brakes, smaller flywheel and lower the engine, remove the fire system, lose the starter motor, remove the new roll bar braces that don't really connect to the frame, remove the new firewall and put in the nice aluminum fuel tank ( the fuel cell makes it hard for JJ to get in the car).

My old class weight for the car was 1000 lbs. A 1960's F1 tube frame weighed about 75 lbs., some were less. My motor and transaxle weigh about 275 lbs. It seems I can lose a lot in the weight dept. and it will be fun. I don't see this as encouraging anyone else with a Club Ford to come racing with us though. Sometimes these things are counter-intuitive though so maybe it will work.

Thing is these things are way over-built, but that is part of the attraction - they are very strong, durable and safe. I can build this car with frame tubing twice the weight of an old F1 car and still come out several hundred pounds lighter then where I am now.

[breakaway500]

All good points,Dave. When does a car become "too slow" for a class? Or,too fast? Should there even be such a stipulation?

Should all monoque and tube frame cars be placed in FP because of construction alone?

That will place all the Cobra cars,tube frame "stock cars",and most "kit" cars into Formula and any other car having a tube frame stock (mine).That won't work out well.

Our Prepared class division does need tweaking,but not to the point of everyone is in one class.

How about Formula 1 and 2? Both classes for purpose built race cars,never intended for road use.0-1.9L normally aspirated for F2 and everything else in F1? I'm sure it could not be quite that simple but something along those lines.

You would then have PA and PB to sort out for production based modified cars.(including tube frame "stock" cars) There are minimal entries in PA usually, so move up PB cars (4 cyl forced induction and 6cyl) to PA and PB becomes the catch all for the rest. No added classes.

You could then make reclassifications based on the inability of a specific "spec" car to be uncompetitive in its primary class.

Or,we could make more classes,being more specific about things..F1,F2,F3..PA,PB,PC etc....with their own guidelines..and exceptions..

Or,we make one big class..call it COM,and everyone runs whatever they bring to have fun and toss the trophies in the trash!

I'm gonna go work on my car for a while...and for the records,I did run a 1:14.02...

[cuda6666]

That's what I've been looking for all these years, Mark. A car with the "inability to be uncompetitive."

[breakaway500]

"inability to be uncompetitive" isn't that a double negative?

Fastest time...is the fastest car,right..and so on down the list.. A car's a car...

[horizenjob]

I did run a 1:14.02

Your going to like it in FP! We're way cooler then the other cars.

Here is a quick guide -

[breakaway500]

You just got 100 bonus points in my book... Steve McQueen..!!

It's all good!! My goal on track is to go just a little faster..

[John F]

Another 50 points for the trailer park boys!