i just got a new track car

[nateh]

I finally did some googling, and found some references online to the Diasio competing in DSR. That places it in FP.

I also have seen references to it being uncompetitive in DSR, which would seem to create an opening for its owner to ask for it to be classed lower. If the owner were to propose this, then as a steward charged with this decision, I would want to see lap time comparisons. (I haven't run across anything as yet.)

If David were to ask for such dispensation, there would be a lot of opposition, on the grounds that it's clear enough already that it is a DSR car, and there's no need or justification to make an exception.

I won't predict how (or when, or if) this discussion would end. COMers love to argue these points.

- Nate

[breakaway500]

Where is the incentive to better ones self (or equipment) if all you have to do is ask permission to be moved down into a different class? When I was pokey-ass slow in PB,I didn't ask to to be placed in a more "competitive" class. No,I worked on making me and my car(s) better,so I could compete in the class. I see this mind set in most COM members.If the car is truly misclassified,and you need to win,I would say get rid of it and buy or build a car capable of winning that class,or choose a different class by the rules in place.
Choosing the right equipment and class is all part of being a good competitor,especially if your goal is to win.
Am I missing something?

[962porsche]

mark yes your missing some thing ! like me 400 more HP ! well it looks like i'm getting bent over again ! FP it will be . tomarrow i will start making calls for a turbo rx8 motor and call chris diasio on what trans i will need for the swap . THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE 1000cc DIASIO SHOULD BE IN FP . i'm going to have some other people drive it to get average lap times for the car . so we will see ?

[breakaway500]

Dave,if I were you,I would try the car with the GSXR1000 motor.You may be very surprised just how fast it is!
If I have learned anything with COM, it is that HP is not the answer to speed on track.Sure it helps a little,but not above all else. With my Atom,I looked at everything BUT hp to go faster. Power without control is useless. I am absolutely amazed by how fast COM members cars are with stock motors. When Epstein posted his car for sale,I was expecting to read about all sorts of exotic motor mods...nope...stock. Same with Dans Mustang..stock. Gordons Miata..stock. There are others. Don't throw the towel in and just look for hp to win.

[nateh]

Mark, you're absolutely right.

What you are missing is that classification is all about a car's potential, not the speed of a particular car/driver combination. If we were willing to have a book as big as the SCCA GCR, then we could define all cars. We don't have those kinds of resources. Therefore in P classes, which are small and fuzzy, we are going to have to deal with gray areas. Given that there are gray areas, there needs to be a way for competitors to argue about the fairness of their situations.

As Chief Steward, I try every year to make the rules a little bit clearer (fewer gray areas), without expanding them excessively. It may be that this year's change to the P-class rules will prove not have been an improvement. In that case, we can change them again next year. Meantime, how about giving me and the rest of the stewards a chance to do what we are supposed to, which is to attempt to make fair rulings that encourage good competition?

In practice, people will put their cars in the classes they think they should be in. Most will not be challenged. A few will require discussion. Any discussion must be enlightened by numbers, especially if we are to decide anything other than what seems simplest and most obvious.

Examples:

I think my car should be in PC. It will have a 4 cylinder, 2L normally aspirated motor. It is clearly not an SRF any more, and it should be a little bit faster - 150 vs 100 HP. Nevertheless, in my opinion, it doesn't have anything special that would argue that it be in a higher class. (Analogous to Bill Fitzmaurice's Warrior.)

PB seems right for the Ariel Atom, in whatever tune Mark arrives this coming year - assuming it is still a turbo 4. There's nothing special about it that would appear to put it out of line with PB, now that the question of open wheels has been clarified. The fact that it is very fast means only that it's been well developed (and driven, I one must suppose!). The same observations apply to Alex Grabau's shocking Lancer Evo.

If we were still running the diesel (turbo 4), I would not ask for it to be knocked down to PC, even though it was slower than death in PB. We simply didn't develop it to its potential - and ran out of money and patience trying to do so. Its classing was perfectly fair.

If the Diasio were not classed by SCCA in DSR, then its default class would be PC. Anyone opposed to that would have to come up with numbers (lap times) to justify their objection. The stewards would be perfectly within their rights, under the current rules, to bump it up to PB or higher if the available performance numbers were to justify that.

But the rules say DSR is in FP, and it seems the Diasio has run in DSR. What isn't clear to me is whether or not the stewards would be within their rights to bump it down from FP to PA or lower if somebody could come up with convincing numbers. (Lacking convincing numbers, there is no argument available.) I could be persuaded either way, at this point.

- Nate

[962porsche]

the diasio i have has some of the 2009 diasio up dates . except the motor , rear wing and rear defuser . over this summer i'm going to finish the body up dates . and next winter i will finish the up dates with the motor swap . nate and mark you guys have very good point . but come on its not an open class car !!!!!!!!!!!!! but like i said i want other people to drive it and we will see ? the people i'm thinking of driving it are you two guys (nate and mark ) john and bruce . i think the 5 of us can come up with a true average lap time and reclass the car from there .

[nateh]

Oh boy, what fun!

[962porsche]

i just came across a used stage 2 turbo kit for the GSX-R 1000 motor for 1500 dollars . states at 10 lbs it will put out 280 HP . in a 1120 lb car .

[breakaway500]

A cars potential.Interesting theory. Power to weight? That would be a start. However,it would require dyno testing,and anti-tampering devices/seals,weighing before time trials,etc.You would have to run it like a sanctioned Spec race series. Highly impractical, given that most everyone at COM drives a very different car,with the exception of some Spec cars that run COM and compete in other venues as well.

So,we have stewards,or officials of the club,who make these rulings,and that's what they are..rulings,or judgement decisions. It is a pretty important role in respect to classification in these "grey" matters. When the rules are not specific in definition,we look to the stewards for clarity,or as you say " fairness of their situations".

You proposed a new rule last fall to make any car without fenders a formula car,just to "clairify" the FP rules. Interesting timing,just after I made my fender-less street car competitive in PB class. John Spain came up and shook my hand the day I won FTD. .You decided to 'clairify" the rules. So much for "encouraging good competition". Because I enjoy running with COM,I didn't let it bother me much.I'm just a new guy on the block anyway.

Here is a judgement decision on a car in COM prepared,and you take the position that the car should not be in FP,rather in PC,even though it is clearly classified as a DSR..and then use this paragraph from the rules in your defense:

"Any competitor entering a Prepared car not explicitly described below should consult with the COMSCC Stewards, who have discretion to classify it as they deem
appropriate."

How do you deem the Diasios potential as inappropriate for F prepared when the SSCA and other sanctioning bodies clearly believe it is competitive in their DSR classes? The owner has not attended one event with the car,however, It does have the "potential" to run 1:11's at NHMS,according to SCCA rules. (from your data)

Let's just say I lack "clarity" on how you make these decisions on classification.

Fun indeed!

Dave,I still think you should try the Diasio as it is. Light cars handle much more differently than a conventional car. Put a few events on it before adding the warp drive..that's what I would do.

[nateh]

Mark, I thought we had cleared up those misunderstandings. I'm not going to attempt to defend my integrity in this forum. Your posts have now clearly become personal attacks. That's enough for me - I'm done with this discussion.

[962porsche]

yes my plan is to run it as is for a short time . i want to get to know the car first to see were it needs to go . but in short you can't take the stats from a new up to date diasio and think there the same as the older ones . just as i stated before you don't think that this car would win head to head with a V8 powered prototype car or high hp down force car ? no . all that people as a equal playing field . so if my car at LRP is turning a best lap of 58's but with up grades and a top driver at best it can turn a 56 . then should that car still be classed with cars that can run 53's or better ? hell no i hear get an other car then . no that just puts less of a verity if cars on the track . it would be better to place the slower car in a class were it would be competitive . even the scca has 2 classes that the diasio runs in CSR and DSR . both cars have the same platform . so if the rules get change that the DSR cars can run in SAY PA then thats all the better for the club ! it may make some one that has a DSR think that i may also do some comscc avents becouse i may have a chance to do good or even win .

[breakaway500]

Dave, I still think you would be wise to try the car out with the GSXR power before loading both barrels.It may surprise you.

Nate,I don't remember clearing up any "misunderstanding" in regard to your sudden desire to clean up the rules for prepared. If you had your way,I would be running my street car in FP this year. Luckily,it takes a vote from the BOD's to get any proposed rule changes enacted,and your proposal concerning prepared car classification was amended to its current wording.I have great respect for the clubs rule system procedure when I saw it in action. I would have to say this is one of the resons the club has lasted for over 50 years.
Which brings us back to this thread. You stated the Diasio belonged in PC,when clearly the rules on the books currently say it is in FP.You then defended your decision by saying it was up to you and the other stewards discretion to place grey area cars. However,the rules clearly state to the contrary; DSR cars run in FP,unless they are shown to be uncompetitive,and may then be moved.The car in question has not been run,so why move it first? I'm not personally attacking any one. I am trying to understand the logic in the decisions on such matters as it has affected me personally in regards to the same set of rules in prepared.
You are the one that said, and I quote;
"I didn't intend that there would be heated discussions over every car, and I don't expect there to be. Unless that's what people prefer, and in that case - bring it on!"
I don't mind playing by the rules. However,I do mind when those rules are not applied evenly. The buck has to stop somewhere,and you are the chief. Sorry you take it personally.

[zchris]

If classing is done by potential, the scca DSR track record running north chicane and south oval is 104.772 . That is around the GT1 track record for the same. So if a GT1 car is P1 then that would be about right for a DSR. Just using known numbers for reference. I have no dog in this discussion.
Chris Howard

[DanDarcy]

Dave your Diasio has the potential to be the fastest car at Com A stock GSXR1000 motor can have up to 182.5 h.p. with the stock mufflers and air box and I know this because I am a Suzuki dealer and have been for 38 years. Don't change your motor, you are better off with the GSXR motor but make sure you run a dry sump system. The stock motor in a bike does not have to worry about the oil sloshing to the side as the bike leans into the corner and the oil stays in the bottom of the sump. With a motortcycle engine in a car, all the oil can slosh up to the side of the engine and cause oil starvation and can also fill up the wet clutch in a long left hand turn and cause it to slip.

Nate -- I don't see where your car would be PC, if we consider potential, as you have said, you and John have been turning NHMS lap times in the 1:17-1:18 range. All the other PC cars with COM are doing 1:21-1:26. Now you want to add 50% more horse power and run in a lower class . If you read the new prepared rules , I think you have to agree your car is FP. This may not have been your intention when you wrote the new rule but lets take a close look at the rule.

Any competitor entering a Prepared
car not explicitly described below should consult with the COMSCC Stewards, who have discretion to classify it as they deem
appropriate.

Simple enough lets look at what is "explicitly described"

FORMULA PREPARED
FP is for high-performance purpose-built race cars. FP has no performance limits so modifications from the original
sanctioning body\’s specifications are allowed. Included are:
Any Formula Car (in the sense of an open-wheeled, single seat, open cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified.
Typical are the SCCA FA, FB, FC, FE, FF, FM, F500 Formula car classes.
Any Sports Racer (in the sense of a closed wheel, open cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are the
SCCA ASR, CSR, DSR, ESR, S2000 classes.
Any Sports Prototype (in the sense of a closed wheel, closed cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are
American Lemans or Grand Am P1, P2 and GTP.

Now lets consider your car: Is it a purpose built race car ? Most certainly it is. Is it a sports racer, closed wheel open cockpit ? Most certainly it is. Is it a Sports Renault, Spec Racer Ford and Renault as discribed under PC, not any more. Therefor your car come under FP_ and has more copeditive lap times than last years FP champion.

[DanDarcy]

Now lets look at the Ariel Atom. This is a raod car built to be driven on the street. Most are driven by wealty middle age men who think they look younger and "cool" driving one (Sorry Mark) . Very few of these cars are ever tracked, or if they are it is usually done only once and scares the crap out of the owner. They are not "kit cars" as the come from the manufacturer as a complete car. These should be considered the same as any other limited production car or low number model from any major manufacturer. I think they have made over 3000 Ariel Atoms, quite a few. I have a Poesche built Mercedes, they made only 505 of them. Does this put the car in Prepared like you have done with the Atom ? The Atom should be considered in SS but at the worse in SP like a kit car even though it is not a kit car.

The rules are a guide to be followed, Nate has stated

I also have seen references to it being uncompetitive in DSR, which would seem to create an opening for its owner to ask for it to be classed lower. If the owner were to propose this, then as a steward charged with this decision, I would want to see lap time comparisons. (I haven't run across anything as yet.)

If we start disregarding our rules and start changing car classes because some one is slow in there class( either by ability or car setup) we lose our integrity as a club. The rules are not ment to guaranty that a driver wins his class. It is not always the car with the most potential, horse power, speed, handling, and brakes that wins. The car that wins usually has the driver with the best ability.