i just got a new track car

[brucesallen]

So the cars that would otherwise be classified in formula that are currently on the list of PC cars were placed there by the BODs (by vote) as they were not be competitive in Formula,correct?(I know the F440 was) Bruce,what is your opinion on the Diasio in PC class? How about a Radical SR3(4cyl bike powered) in PC? Similar to a Diasio,but no roof,two seats.Just wondering...

I believe the Diasio and Radical should be in FP

[breakaway500]

Very confusing,indeed.It seems the rules are a bit vague on classification in Prepared. Exceptions have been made for certain cars that would normally fall into Formula..but what if those cars are then heavily modified? They are no longer a "spec" whatever. What if Johnathan decided to put a GSXR1000 in his F440? It certainly would no longer be a "spec" Formula 440. Just bump it up a class..or does it return to formula? You could argue points either way. Stories for another day,I guess.

[DanDarcy]

Dave I think you will find your car is in FP as the rules say" FP is for high-performance purpose-built race cars." and "Any Sports Racer (in the sense of a closed wheel, open cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are the
SCCA ASR, CSR, DSR, ESR, S2000 classes Any Sports Prototype (in the sense of a closed wheel, closed cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are
American Lemans or Grand Am P1, P2 and GTP"

This describes your car are it is basicly a DSR with a roof (sports prototype) and is a purpose built race car. You should be able to clean up in FP as the only one to do the required 3 events for championship this year was the "Red Devil" F440 of Jonathan Whorf. Nate and John should also be in this class.

Nate and John's car is currently misclassified. It started life as a " Sports Renault" which is specificly placed in PC but once you remove the Renault motor it is no longer a "Sports Renault" and goes back to FP as it is a purpose-built single seat open race car. If you take a Formula Ford and remove the Ford motor and install a Mazda motor it is no longer a Formula Ford, same thing for a Sports Renault.

[962porsche]

when i looked at the classes to see were the car would be placed i was thinking FP becouse it runs DSR with scca . but once gain i'm looking at all the car that comscc just lumps into one class . then i got to thinking if the turbo bio-diesel racer is in PB then i'm going to run in PC with a 1000cc diasio . becouse if you can run a full out GTP or ALMS P1 car in FP then i must be in PC . becouse there is no way that a 1000cc motored car can run with and compete with a full out p1or even an old out dated GTP car . so i will leave this up to the comscc BOD to get the classing of cars right ! nate and john will be in PC this coming year .and if we are told to reclass our cars so be it ! as for the 944 loaner . i'm still thinking about what to charge for the uses of the car ? i want it to be cheap ! so the more people will want to spend a day at the track and see what its all about .

[jlwhorf]

I'll be the devil advocate here: No where in the COM rule book says that the cars in P must conform to the competition rules (i.e. SCCA GCR) of their originating class. Also it dose not say that engine swaps are not permitted or non-complient cars be moved into FP. So, how is swapping a motor in Bill Fitz's 5/8 prostock different than Nate's spec renault or even my F440? Remember the rule on thumb in P, if it dosen't say it can't be done, it is legal. As far as I am concerned, the Diasio could be concidered a 2 seat 4 cyl car putting it in PC, or a full competition car putting it in FP. But it's not my choice to make.

[962porsche]

yes you can change motors ! my new car is In scca D SPORTS RACER (DSR) . now if i changed the motor to a yamaha 1000cc motor i will still be in DSR . if i changed the motor to a mazda rx8 turbo motor then i would be bumped out of DSR in scca . but thats not the case when running with comscc's FP class . nate and john are changing the motor in there car to an NA vw gas motor moving them from PB to PC . NOW if we were to run in FP at this time we would clean up in that class . if some one started to run a real porsche 962 in that class were would we be then ? the ruling for FP class sucks .

[DanDarcy]

Jonathan the new 2010 rules give specific examples of cars that are classified as FP and PC . for FP it says these cars are in the class "Any Sports Racer (in the sense of a closed wheel, open cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are the
SCCA ASR, CSR, DSR, ESR, S2000 classes.
Any Sports Prototype (in the sense of a closed wheel, closed cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified. Typical are
American Lemans or Grand Am P1, P2 and GTP."

So Daves new car being DSR is defiantly FP

For PC it says "SCCA GT3, GTL, Formula Vee, FP, GP, HP, Sports Renault, Spec Racer Ford and Renault
Formula 440 " So when John and Nate converted their purposed built sports Renault to a bio diesel special it moved the car from PC to FP according to the 2010 rules which Nate wrote the new FP rule. Now that they are installing a normally aspirated VW motor the car is in FP, being a " purpose built race car"

Dave you and Nate should know these rules as you are both stewards.

Jonathan it is true that there is no rule in P & FB that prevents engine swaps but when a specific SCCA class car is mentioned like your F440 and you change the motor to a GSXR 1000 motor , your car is no longer an F440 and must follow the rules for FP which states "Any Formula Car (in the sense of an open-wheeled, single seat, open cockpit car) that is not otherwise classified.
Typical are the SCCA FA, FB, FC, FE, FF, FM, F500 Formula car classes."

This is no different than if Richard Murphy took his PC classed Miata and put a V8 in it. The car could not stay in PC and would have to move to PA.When you change the motor you can not always stay in the same class.

Dave don't worry about a real 962 showing up (who would run a million dollar car at COM) and blowing you into the weeds, but for you to run in PC with a Diasio is like the real 962 running against you, the other compeditors don't stand a chance

[breakaway500]

One of the problems I see concerning prepared class equality is if a street car cuts its fenders or adds fender flares or runs a wide tire beyond the fenders,they then have NO choice but to run in one of the prepared classes up against purpose built race cars. Some street cars just can't run wide enough track tires and lower the suspension without some trimming of the sheet metal etc.Other simple mods will also land you in Prepared.The penalty for such a modification is a boot to Prepared,where you will run against full tilt race cars. If you add fender flares on your SSC car,welcome to Prepared. A helluva jump in competition to add a bit of plastic.
I know.... "classification does not guarantee competitiveness"..so why have any classes?

As far as engine swaps etc...if you are going to make an exception for a specific "spec" car,and allow it to run in a "slower" class,because it would not be competitive in a "faster" class..you have now created guidelines for that car in that class.A Spec car is called that because it already has to conform to a very specific set of rules and guidelines to race in a sanctioned race body. Modifying the "Spec" car beyond its original specifications makes the car a bastard,and not a "spec" car any more. It should now revert back to the original guidelines for prepared,which in formula states single seat,purpose built race car.

[brucesallen]

the ruling for FP class sucks .

FP is an unlimited class. Performance ranges from a Formula Ford to infinity. Remember that the rules used to limit FP to Formula Ford performance and all higher performance cars had NO class and only could run for FTD. In my 22 years with COM I have only seen one indy-car level of performance entry in COM and that was when he had to run for FTD only. Today he could not run his alcohol car in COM at all.

[jlwhorf]

as for the 944 loaner . i'm still thinking about what to charge for the uses of the car ? i want it to be cheap ! so the more people will want to spend a day at the track and see what its all about .

FYI

http://www.scda1.com/rental-car/

[962porsche]

i called nate he is looking into it !

[nateh]

I was hoping to stay out of this because of any perceived conflict of interest, but I guess I can't. Also, I'm being quoted above, and I admit I said that - and I was wrong!

I wrote the new Prepared rules that the board adopted, so you can blame me if they are causing problems! But the Board concurred, and I thought we had a common idea of the intent.

First, you're all apparently ignoring the critical first paragraph :

XII. PREPARED
This classification is for any car that does not fit into any of the more restrictive classes above. Any competitor entering a Prepared
car not explicitly described below should consult with the COMSCC Stewards, who have discretion to classify it as they deem
appropriate.

What this means is that David and I, plus anyone else whose car is not listed on page 22 or 23 (including owners of Ariel Atoms), need to individually ask the Board of Stewards to rule on which class we should be placed in. This is not ambiguous; it's right there in black and white.

As to what the Stewards will decide, that's up to them - I obviously have to recuse myself.

However, let me speak to the intent of the rule, which I now realize I should have added to the FORMULA PREPARED description. FP is supposed to be a FASTER class than the other 3 P-classes. A wise board of stewards would not put a car that can only do 1:16s (NHMS chic-chic) in FP.

Mistakes will be made and arguments will be had. There aren't enough P class cars to make a Supreme Court case worthwhile. I hope people will be reasonable.

Relevant SCCA class records:
FA 01:04.0 Paul LeCain Ralt RT41 2003
FC 01:07.4 Philip Lombardi Van Diemen RF98 2003
GT1 01:09.0 Jack Bush Olds Cutlass 2005
FE 01:09.9 Keegan VanSicklen Van Diemen FSCCA 2007
CFC 01:09:9 Philip Picard VanDiemen RF 2004
F500 01:10.6 Jim Schultz Invader QC-1 2003
FF 01:10.7 Arthur Foster Van Diemen RF00 1999
SPO 01:10.9 Stephen Savino, Jr. Porshe 944 Turbo 2003
CSR 01:11.1 Jim Hanrahan Radicial SR3 2003
S2000 01:11.7 Nicholas Fonte Lola T88/90 2003
DSR 01:11.8 Thomas Becker AMAC AM6 2003
NCF 01:13.0 Robert Weiner Crossle 45F 2008
ITE 01:13.2 Andy Sanborn Porsche 911 2003
FB 01:13.8 Ron Ignatowski Van Diemen 2003
GT2 01:15.0 ChrisHoward Nissan 300ZX 2006
GT3 01:15.2 Bill Thumel Nissan 240SX 2003
EP 01:15.9 Eric Krueger MGB 2004
HRG5 01:16.2 David Huntington Porsche 911 2006
SPU 01:16.3 Shawn Morgan 7/8 Pro Stock 2003
CGT1 01:16.5 Laurie Sanborn Porsche 911 2003
AS 01:16.7 Scott Bleiweiss Ford Mustang 2003
T1 01:16.7 Tom Lyons Chevy Corrvette 2005
CGT3 01:17.0 Fred Bross Datsun 710 2003
SRF 01:17.7 Derek Defonce Spec Racer Ford 2005

For the record, I expect to run our new Frankenspec in SCCA's SPU class.

Cheers!
- Nate

[nateh]

There's something else I should have added. In my opinion, we should err on the side of the simple definition: 4 cylinder normally aspirated = PC, and so on. Only cars with unusual (for COM) characteristics would fall outside this. Almost all cars running in the P classes last year were in their appropriate classes, as I see it.

[The only exception is Jonathan Wharf's which seriously misplaced in FP - but that's a choice he is allowed to make, because we have always allowed competitors to run in classes that are faster than the one the rules put them in, assuming the car meets the needed safety standards. We should write this into the rules somewhere...]

A wholesale shuffling of the P-classes was not the intent of the rule change. To interpret it this way would be demoralizing for the competitors, and discourage participation in these classes - the opposite of what we were trying to achieve.

- Nate

[breakaway500]

It looks like,from your above list,the CSR car ran a 1:11. The DSR car ran a 111.8. The Diasio should be able to run these times as well,maybe even faster,so FP would be appropriate,using time as "classification criteria". Certainly not PC.
My Atom is a street car,with a valid registration and title (VT).It passes emission and safety inspection in stock trim,in most states.(Not sure about NH..might need a w/s.) It is not a purpose built race car.Never has been. If I had a windshield and fenders,I would run in SPB,with my 4cyl,supercharged motor. Why do I need to ask where it belongs?Am I not supposed to classify my own car? It might kind of look like some "formula cars",but it certainly is not a "formula car".
You told me last year it belonged in Formula P (once I ran in the mid teens with the car,at NHMS). It was OK fine in PB when I ran 1:21's last year.(at NHMS) Yep,no problems then.
Is that how classifications will now be determined?
By time?
Is Formula really supposed to be faster than all the other P classes? Where does it say that,or is this just inferred?

Following that logic..then A class should be faster than B and B faster than C..but that is not true...

NHMS record holders:

FP Bruce Allen 1:11.621 Nov-09 Van Diemen Formula SCCA
PA Patrick McMahon 1:17.992 Sep-09 Factory Five Racing Spec Racer
PB Alexander Grabau 1:13.817 Sep-09 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution II
PC Lester Seal 1:19.813 Sep-09 Mazda Locost
SPA Cort Wilson 1:15.922 Nov-09 Ford GT-40
SPB Dan Baldwin 1:18.519 Sep-09 Datsun 240Z
SPC Mike Demopoulos 1:18.185 Nov-09 BMW E30 M3
STGT Robert Cerchione 1:20.862 Nov-09 BMW E46 M3
ST1 Anthony Janes 1:19.935 Aug-09 Subaru Impreza WRX STi
ST2 Fred Ferguson 1:18.757 Jul-09 BMW E30 M3
ST3 Greg Loupis 1:19.111 Jul-09 BMW 328is
ST4 Jeff Wasilko 1:23.244 Jul-09 Mazda Miata
SSU Michael Wilson 1:17.224 Nov-09 Nissan GT-R
SSGT Richard Noonan 1:21.710 Nov-09 Porsche Cayman S
SSA Dan Baldwin 1:22.980 Nov-09 Honda S2000
SSB Will Strobel 1:22.879 Nov-09 Mazda Miata
SSC Robert Ready 1:28.260 Nov-09 Mazda Miata

As we can see above,A "higher" class is not always faster.

Are we basing car classification on times turned, car specifications,or just plain ole personal preference of the "rule maker"?

If I run a faster time than FP this year with my Atom, do I get "moved" to FP??

It really makes no sense to me.

[nateh]

Mark, calm down. As I said, I believe all of last year's classifications were fair, and I don't think the stewards as a whole will disagree significantly.

I don't know much about the Diasio myself, and it seems that study is needed. I prefer data, and I thank you for offering some.

I didn't intend that there would be heated discussions over every car, and I don't expect there to be. Unless that's what people prefer, and in that case - bring it on!