Car classing

Questions, comments, and discussions concerning COMSCC rules.

Moderators: Boondocker850, blindsidefive0

kfoote
Speed Setter
Speed Setter
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:38 am

Re: Car classing

Post by kfoote » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:56 pm

enjoythemusic wrote:Well, guess it is my turn to... Am lodged in STGT, a lowly 3L decades old naturally asperated Ferrari 308 with a mere 240 HP.

Also available to the same class is:
BMW M3, 2001+, M5 V8
Corvette ZR1
Dodge Viper ACR
Ferrari F40, F50, 328 and 348 Challenge
Ford Mustang Cobra Supercharged
Porsche 911 RS and RSR

So i am soooooooooo S.O.L. There is NO WAY my lil 308 could touch a M3/M5, ZR1, let alone the likes of a F40 (awesome driver's car) or Viper.

So what gives?
*tries to keep quiet, and fails*

I agree 100% that the Ferrari 308 is very misclassed.
Kevin Foote
#64 SB Nissan 350Z
1998-2003 Chief of Tech
1998-2002 BOD member
SSB Track Record Holder at LRP

User avatar
rajito
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:33 pm

Post by rajito » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:20 pm

The STi's and Evo's also fall in the same group, while the 350Z goes in SSGT. Then again, I am just another whiny Subaru guy :)

A Z06 or Viper or F40 would trounce any of the other cars in the class. Kinda hard to argue with 400+ hp and tires with more rubber than a Trojan factory.

However, not many of them show up, and I don't think it makes much sense to have separate classes for them. Otherwise we would have a bunch of one car classes.

Raj
#66 SuperSlowGT
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z

Flatout Motorsports
Rookie Driver
Rookie Driver
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:57 am

Post by Flatout Motorsports » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:51 pm

rajito wrote:The STi's and Evo's also fall in the same group, while the 350Z goes in SSGT. Then again, I am just another whiny Subaru guy :)

A Z06 or Viper or F40 would trounce any of the other cars in the class. Kinda hard to argue with 400+ hp and tires with more rubber than a Trojan factory.

However, not many of them show up, and I don't think it makes much sense to have separate classes for them. Otherwise we would have a bunch of one car classes.

Raj
While I agree with you in principle, that is no way to go about classification decisions. It's a lose/lose when one DOES show up and cleans house. The 'regular cars' in the class lose and then the new guy loses when he gets booted for no reason.

If you are going to alllow them to run, class them correctly. If that means another class above ITGT, then so be it. You have to build your system assuming that anything could show up, at any time. Otherwise, you are just destined for trouble.

AB
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

enjoythemusic
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:51 am
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Post by enjoythemusic » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:37 am

Flatout Motorsports wrote: You have to build your system assuming that anything could show up, at any time. Otherwise, you are just destined for trouble.
100% agree. (Sigh) Guess when i get tired driving the red car i'll go spec racing. Makes more sense.
Enjoy the Track,

Steven R.
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com

enjoythemusic
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:51 am
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Oh stop it...

Post by enjoythemusic » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:12 pm

dinoracer wrote:Can I get a head count for support of establishment of an SPO class?
Street Prepared Old - 4 6 or 8 cylinders, carburators and points ignitions only? :lol: :lol:
Count me in. Does that mean i can FINALLY dump the d@mn Bosch K-Jetronic system and go backwards to Webbers :) Problem is, if i did that then i would have to redo the ignition system, but i hear the gains are from stock 240hp to about 275HP.

Oh heck, may as well really go back and swap out this 1985 puppy for a 1977 version... Webbers, dry sump, and 'glass body. Darn those 1980's USA laws about emissions and safety!
Enjoy the Track,

Steven R.
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com

User avatar
DanB
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:15 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Post by DanB » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:00 pm

'17 Subaru BRZ PP, #7 T50
Gone but not forgotten: Datsun 240Z, #7 SPB :cry:

enjoythemusic
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:51 am
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Post by enjoythemusic » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:11 am

Dat-a looks a-nice-a. But then-a you PPI it and find out it she has a problems. The compression/leak down shows real problems, and the cylinder liners, well...

i think they used sodium filled valves back then that can implode from modern day racing temps, but perhaps i am wrong. It was something Ferrari did on the 246/Dino to reduce the temps. Worst still, the 308 uses an interference engine. If one of the two cam belts break...

Oh, in 1977 there were no anti-rust measurements. That began is 1983... and you know about rust/salt/etc here in New England.

Still, she is a-beautiful. Bella! A rolling piece of art and science. being a GTB, unlike the GTS here, the chassis is a bit stiffer too. Now where did i put that (imaginary) AmEx Black card. Oh yeah, right by my crayon box :)

BTW: that car is VERY low miles. That means all the gaskets, hoses, etc would need to be redone to make the car 'work' IMHO. The sad thing is, you can find ultra-low, almost never driven, Ferrari cars of many vintages at outrageous prices. Truly a pitty :(
Enjoy the Track,

Steven R.
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com

User avatar
mr2sc
Speed Setter
Speed Setter
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:43 am
Location: Baie DUrfe, Quebec, Canada

Re: SP

Post by mr2sc » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:04 pm

brucesallen wrote:Many years ago when SP was ceated as a highly modified engine, street-chassis car I was totally opposed to 4, 6, 8 cyl as SPC, SPB, SPA but if you look at the history of competitors it has worked amazingly well. Don't change it. The purity of SP became tainted when we treated 944s with their large displacement as different. Don't forget that is legal for a Miata to be in SPC with a homemade 5 liter four cylinder engine costing $100,000. Or a mustang to be in SPA with a blown 2,000 horsepower custom engine (just no nitro).
We need MORE radical mods to compete for these little troohies! :twisted:
Hi Bruce,
I'm not convinced its worked so well, nor of its 'purity'.

I realize that I'm a bad example, not being a 'regular', but thats due to the onerous requirement of having to compete with 1.6l against cars with 50% greater displacement. (YES...I acknowledge I am allowed to shoehorn that 5l 4 banger in there). So, I simply don't run as many events as I might otherwise.
The fun of actually competing on a level playing field is removed, for sake of 'purity'.

Funneling 5 levels of ST down to only 3 at SP makes little sense now that so many competitive cars have aged to the point where owners would probably be willing to mod them a bit further, to SP level.

Further, besides discouraging people from modding their cars (hey, isn't tweaking our ride part of this madness we call a hobby?), its simply unheard of to have cylinder count as the criteria. Is ther any other club or racing organization out there that uses a classification system like this?

I posted my long-winded plea for revision several years ago on the old message board, but the displacement formulas suggested there are probably still relevant today.

Part of the rebuttal then, was that there weren't enough SP level cars to populate more than 3 classes. With the proliferation of late model STi's, E36 M3's, older 911s and similar, now already having migrated to SP, there would surely be enough participants to justify 4 or 5 SP levels and likely encourage others to make the leap.

just my .03 :roll:
Tommy
88 MR2 Mk1.5

User avatar
DanB
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:15 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Post by DanB » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:59 pm

I'll make ALL a y'all happy:

SP classes:
SPC: up to 2.4 liters
SPB: up to 4.0 liters
SPA: unlimited
1.5 equivalency multiplier for supercharged, 2.0 for turbo

Dere ya go, 1.6 SC MR-2 w/ motor mods is now in SPC!

Also by my decree, Ferrari 308 = SSGT, ST1 w/ suspension mods, SPB w/ motor mods (oops, I screwed myself with the SP rules changes!).

Unfortunately, I don't make the rules, and if I did, a substantial tribute would be expected if'n you wanted me to change them:)

Tommy, can you fit a 2.0 turbo in a first-gen Mr. 2? That'd be fun I bet...
'17 Subaru BRZ PP, #7 T50
Gone but not forgotten: Datsun 240Z, #7 SPB :cry:

enjoythemusic
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:51 am
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Post by enjoythemusic » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:44 pm

DanB wrote:Also by my decree, Ferrari 308 = SSGT, ST1 w/ suspension mods, SPB w/ motor mods
That works as STI is BMW M3 6-cyl, M5, M6, M Coupe, M Roadster, Lotus Exige, Elsie PS2, Porsche 944 Turbo S, Subaru WRX, etc. Have been on the track with M3, 944 Turbo and Lotus and we were closely matched. Now an F40 or new Vette to a 308, i may as well pack it up in the paddock the morning of. MANY thanks.

Since i am permanently (stickers) marking the car, will order ST1 at a minimum of 4 inch height per rules.

i do have a question regarding "Tires must be DOT approved, with no undertread showing (For safety reasons), and either be listed in THE TIRE GUIDE or be available in three or more rim diameters."

Am i blind as there is no obvious (downloadable) TIRE GUIDE so i ask this: Am using Mich Pilot PS2 tires now but want something, well... better. Can i use the Hooser DOT legal tires such as

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... odel=R3S05

Thanks, all info in appreciated.
Enjoy the Track,

Steven R.
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com

User avatar
DanB
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:15 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Post by DanB » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:35 pm

YES, you may use Hoosier DOT radials in ANY class! Yes, they will stick just a *little* "better" :)

I was never clear on what "The Tire Guide" was either.
'17 Subaru BRZ PP, #7 T50
Gone but not forgotten: Datsun 240Z, #7 SPB :cry:

User avatar
DanB
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:15 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Post by DanB » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:38 pm

ACK, wait, don't order ST1 stickers! Was just joking, I have no authority to change the rules!
'17 Subaru BRZ PP, #7 T50
Gone but not forgotten: Datsun 240Z, #7 SPB :cry:

User avatar
rajito
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:33 pm

Post by rajito » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Dan,

Can you add a rule so that black STi's with Mass registration and political stickers driven by Indian guys who are under 5'6" tall and weigh less than 120lbs run in SSA?

Thanks.
Raj
#66 SuperSlowGT
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z

User avatar
DanB
Speed Racer
Speed Racer
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:15 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Post by DanB » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:26 pm

Done, but you hafta wear the blond wig.

What is Fush, and how do you Buck it, anyway?
'17 Subaru BRZ PP, #7 T50
Gone but not forgotten: Datsun 240Z, #7 SPB :cry:

kfoote
Speed Setter
Speed Setter
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:38 am

Post by kfoote » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:48 pm

DanB wrote:YES, you may use Hoosier DOT radials in ANY class! Yes, they will stick just a *little* "better" :)

I was never clear on what "The Tire Guide" was either.
This is "The Tire Guide":

http://www.tireguides.com/catalog01.html
Kevin Foote
#64 SB Nissan 350Z
1998-2003 Chief of Tech
1998-2002 BOD member
SSB Track Record Holder at LRP

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest