'04 classification for WRX's and STi's?

rajito · Post by **rajito** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:33 pm

Hi! 
 
Sorry I couldn't make it to the rules meeting. The Subaru forum has a thread filled with rumors on the new classifications for the WRX, STi, etc. 
 
The most reliable one seems to be: 
Stock WRX -> SSGT 
Stock WRX-STi -> STGT (was in ST1 this past year) 
Street Stock WRX -> ST1 (was in ST2 this past year) 
 
Can someone confirm? Would this pit the STi's against 911 turbos and Esprit turbos, and the WRX's against the fearsome Mustangs? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> 
 
Thanks! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> 
Raj

brucesallen · Post by **brucesallen** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:07 pm

Raj, 
We put a special rule in for you only: you must have a restrictor plate and drag a Hyundai behind. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Dinoracer801 · Post by **Dinoracer801** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:48 pm

Yeah Raj, you won't have my elderly Mustang to beat up anymore!<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
Tom

rajito · Post by **rajito** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:35 pm

You guys are harsh. I have a surprise for some of you next year <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
Which reminds me, I've to register for the banquet.... 
Raj

comsccAdmin · Post by **comsccAdmin** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:33 am

The SS WRX is definitely in SSGT. 
The ST WRX is definitely going to ST1. 
 
We are still debating whether the STi will be in STGT or ST1. 
The STi will not have an SS classification. 
 
The current line of thinking is, if the STi were an SS car, it 
would go in SSU, so as an ST car, it would go to STGT. 
But, there aren't *currently* enough aftermarket parts to 
make it a full-bore STGT car, although it would have competed 
favorably against the STGT cars that ran this year. 
 
Actually, here's your chance to help sway the decision. 
If you have hard data to support the classification of the STi, 
we'd be happy to consider it. 
 
-Herb

DennisC · Post by **DennisC** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:20 pm

Herb 
 
Sounds like the WRX STi is one of those cars that unfortunately doesn't quite fit into SSGT or SSU. It would make an awesome SPB car though. Given that it has awd and 2.5L, I'm sure it would be faster than my old awd 2.0L Eclipse which pretty much dominated the class. Hmmm.....maybe I should buy one and build it up? 
 
DennisC

rajito · Post by **rajito** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:41 am

Hi! 
 
Unfortunately I have no hard data on lap times, etc. However, I would say that the stock STi is closer to Mustang Cobras, Firebird/Camaro V8's, 350Z, etc. when it comes to power and handling than the STGT cars (Vipers, Z06's, 911 Turbos, etc.). 
 
I am not sure how much of the WRX aftermarket products will bolt on to the STi. There are no chips available right now, but to be honest, once the tuners figure it out, the car would probably put out 360-375hp with basic exhaust/chip mods. It will still be a pig when it comes to handling - a 3200lb AWD pig <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> - at least until someone makes better springs or coilovers for it. 
 
Why not start the STi's in ST1 and kick them to STGT if they become too annoying? Also, what about the Evo? It makes less stock power than the STi, but all the magazines got better lap times with the Evo (because it is not a pig). 
 
Raj <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub25.ezboard.com/bcomsportscarc ... >rajito</A> at: 12/30/03 11:43 pm

kfoote · Post by **kfoote** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:10 pm

OK, having driven one, here is my opinion. 
 
First off, the WRX should be in SSGT and go to ST1. I fully agree with this move, and think this is the correct class for the car. 
 
The more I think about it, the more I think the STi (and Mitsubishi EVO VIII) should go into SSU stock. Speed, power, weight, and handling are similar to the E46 BMW M3 (which I have also driven). It would be a killer car in SSGT, and prepped to ST rules would be a killer car in ST1. For perspective, I was running about 3.5 sec/lap slower than Chris Connacher at the last NHIS event, and I was on the stock street tires and stock brake pads. Changing just those (would be legal in SSU), plus driving the car better would get 4-5 sec/lap. 
 
FWIW, I have a prototype Bilstein PSS9 coilover kit on my STi now (wasn't on for the COM event) that we hope to be able to have available for sale in February. There are a couple of details that need to be addressed before selling the kit to the public, but I have had it on the car for 2000 miles, and there is a HUGE improvement in handling, probably another 3 sec/lap at NHIS as it sits. Aftermarket support for this car will be huge, and available in the near future.

DennisC · Post by **DennisC** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:34 pm

Kevin 
 
So let me get this straight. By changing just tires, brake pads, springs and shocks, you think a WRX STi will be 7-8 seconds a lap faster than stock at NHIS? What configuration? Sounds a bit optomistic to me. 
 
As for the aftermarket, why wait? When I started working on my Eclipse in 1991, there were no aftermarket parts available except HK$. I engineered most of my own upgrades and only used HK$ for fuel enrichment and boost control. Where's the challenge if everyone can bolt on the same stuff? Guess that's the engineer in me coming out. 
 
DennisC

kfoote · Post by **kfoote** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:38 pm

Dennis, 
 
The effects are multiplicative, not additive, so if everything was done, 6-7 sec/lap is more realistic. I drove on North Oval (I ran 1:25's), but the biggest immprovement would be on Chicaine/Chicaine. The stock pads are prone to the same brake fade as any other car, and racing pads will make a bigger improvement than in most other cars because the rest of the braking system is very good. The stock tires are about the same as Yokohama AVS Intermediates as far as grip level (and volume of squeeling in the corners), and the stock shocks are overdamped for the stock springs. A good alignment would help as well, and I think that fully prepped to ST rules, the car may capable of running as fast as 1:11-1:12's on the South Oval, 1:16-1:17 chicaine/chicaine, and 1:18-1:19 North Oval

DennisC · Post by **DennisC** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:53 pm

Kevin 
 
Not trying to be argumentative here but I would agree with your estimated lap times for a WRX STi prepared to SPB rules rather than STGT rules. For ST prep, I'd add about 3 seconds a lap to your times. That would put an STGT prepared STi at about 1:14-1:15 in the North Chicane - South Oval configuration. 
 
For reference, my old SPB Eclipse (2850lbs, 300+ hp) still holds the record for North Chicane - South Oval at 1:14.4. That record was set back in October 1999 before the re-sealing of the track which has made it noticably faster. And the STi is over 400lbs heavier with roughly the same horsepower. 
 
Another reference point is an ST2 WRX at 1:21.1 in September 2003. I don't think the STi would be 9-10 seconds faster than a plain WRX, both prepared to ST rules. 
 
Any way, I think the STi would make an awesome SPB car. In SSU or STGT, it probably wouldn't be competitive unless you got lucky as far as cars that show up. 
 
DennisC

comsccAdmin · Post by **comsccAdmin** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:21 pm

OK, if the STi were to go into SSU, then shouldn't 
the Mitsubishi Evo8 go there, too? Now that I look 
at it, the Evo shouldn't stay in ST1, either. 
 
Thoughts? 
 
-Herb

rajito · Post by **rajito** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:09 pm

the WRX that did 1:21.1 at the sept NHIS event had stock wagon suspension, on high perf. street tires. the one that did 1:07.4 at LRP in nov had stock sedan suspension, with almost corded victoracers. both probably were making 250hp or so, and both rolled like beached whales in the turns (don't ask how i know all this <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> ) this is 4-5 secs off the ST1 leader. 
 
a stock STi (much stiffer suspension) on new'ish stock tires could easily run 2.5-3 secs faster than either of those WRX's. 
 
the STi does have an extra 1/2 liter of displacement. under ST rules, with an exhaust and chip, the STi could easily get into 350-375 hp range. however, the suspension mounting points for the STi are the same as the WRX. installing the same ST-legal suspension on a WRX and an STi will probably result in almost the same level of handling for both of them, even though the STi has front LSD and electronic center diff (which i think is pure BS <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> ) 
 
a WRX that pushes the ST envelope on mods *may* be competitive in ST1. the STi would handle about the same, but it may end up with a whole lot more power than the other ST1 cars. 
 
i'm pretty sure the STi will get its fat behind kicked if any of the real gorillas of SSU/STGT show up. it's an ST1/SSU in-betweener. 
 
as far as the evo8, it's a 2.0L (instead of 2.5L) but my humble opinion is it belongs in the same group as the STi. their lap times in magazines are so close that it will be the nut behind the wheel that will make the difference. 
 
in any case, i'll be happy to just get back on track again <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
raj

DennisC · Post by **DennisC** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:35 pm

Rajan 
 
If you had stock suspension and street tires, what were you doing in ST2? If I were you, I would have taken off whatever bumped you from SS to ST for that event. 
 
DennisC

DennisC · Post by **DennisC** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:02 pm

Herb 
 
To be honest, I don't understand all this fuss over 2L awd turbos. We've had them in COM since about 1990. Has everyone forgotten the Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX? Stock 1st gen was rated at 195hp and weighed about 3150lbs. The 2nd gen was rated at 205hp and weighed about 3250lbs. Both of these cars were classified as SSA. 
 
Here's my opinion as a former Rules Chair of where the WRX, STi and Evo VIII should be classified. 
 
Stock WRX: SSGT 
Stock STi: ST1 
Stock Evo VIII: ST1 
 
See how the STi and Evo fair in ST1 in stock trim, not to the limit of ST rules. In other words, treat them as "Tuner Cars" which the rules have bumped to ST (although in SS trim) in recent years. If the cars are not competitive, then allow them some of the ST tweaks. That's going to be tough to judge. 
 
In any event, I'd really like to see one built up to SPB rules. I could easily see it produce more than 400hp and weigh less than 2900lbs. That car would rock! 
 
DennisC

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'04 classification for WRX's and STi's?

'04 classification for WRX's and STi's?

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