New formula class rules change proposal

[betelgeuse]

I looked at the NASA TT rules. I added all the points on my car. It would put me in the same class as a stock Honda s2000. If the driver of the s2000 chooses to compete without any mods ( s2000 would have 19 points to play with ), who do you think would win? Check the COM track records for the answer ( SSA and ST3 ).

My point is you have to modify the car to take full advantage of the rules no matter what club you run with.

Other than adding 2 more classes to SP I think the COM rules are fine.

Greg

[962porsche]

you would with the bmw and as for the 944 spec thing yes it does finish up front in that class ! now back to the bmw running with an s2000 . s2000 specs 2800 LBS car , tork 153 ftlbs (not good ) for a motor that puts out 237 HP . a good motor should put out a grater or same tork as the HP . what the numbers are telling me is that the s2000 motor has no balls untill about 3500 rpm . now for the bmw 328is 2700 lbs car putting out 210 ftlbs tork and a 193 hp . now thats a good motor pulls right off the bottom up to just about red line .it may start to fall off about 100 or so before red line . so what the numbers tell me is that the bmw should shine on a tighter track were the s2000 needs longer straights to shine . on paper it a good class matching .

[DanB]

Uh oh, somebody needs to go to torque vs. hp school!

A motor that can't make more hp than lb-ft, is a low-performance motor, period. Note that the units are different, so even if the values are the same, which they by definition are at 5252rpm, they still aren't "the same". They are different things. Torque is a static measurement of a force couple (1 lb hanging off the end of a horizontal 1 ft. rod => 1 lb-ft), power is the rate of doing work (1hp = 550 ft-lb/sec).
Torque is a function of displacement. Given a halfway decent compression ratio, a 4-stroke piston engine should be able to make ~70-75 lb-ft of torque per liter of displacement over some rpm range.
POWER is a function of torque and REVS. In units of lb-ft and hp, hp = (lb-ft * rpm)/5252. If an engine's peak hp value is lower than its peak torque in lb-ft, all that means is that said motor isn't breathing for squat above 5252rpm or so. Not what I'd call "a good motor", at least as far as performance goes!
Even relatively big-inch OHV V8's make peak horsepower numbers greater than their peak torque value in lb-ft. these days.

[DanB]

If the driver of the s2000 chooses to compete without any mods ( s2000 would have 19 points to play with ), who do you think would win? Check the COM track records for the answer ( SSA and ST3 ).

If it's you vs. me, Greg, my money'd have to be on you
Although I did beat you at Mont Tremblant!

What kinda mods would 19 points get me?!

[betelgeuse]

What I am saying is my car is base classed in TTF ( nasa rules ). With the mods and weight reduction I have, I would be classed in TTC. The same class as a stock s2000.
The s2000 can do additional mods and still stay in that class( TTC ) and be competetive. If he chooses not to do the mods, thats his choice. Not the fault of the rules.

As I said above, I think there should be 2 more classes in SP. It would help the people with spec cars and older cars.



Greg

[betelgeuse]

If the driver of the s2000 chooses to compete without any mods ( s2000 would have 19 points to play with )

What kinda mods would 19 points get me?!

Im sure it would give you enough mods to beat me. From what I hear, you just toss your car into the corner ( no brakes ). Im not brave enough to do that.

Greg

[962porsche]

yep thanks dan ! i did not mean to offend ! the 1999 s2000 i had . i did not like why becouse a kid on a bike can pull that car off the line . we all could post specs on what tork and hp are and how it works with stroke to bore , valving and so on . but with all the cars i have and had . i like the cars that have a grater tork rating than hp . countach 522 ft lbs tork to 479 hp it will pull a house down . vw gti more tork than hp grate motor my 325is same thing . my delsol ,the 5 944's , mazda az1 , saab 900 ,that i have are all momentum cars with lower tork to hp motors . the bottom line is that the 328-325 and s2000 are a good match on the track . i think the bmw has better power and the s2000 can handle better . that was all i was saying i was not trying to offend !!!!!!!

[DanB]

I'm not offended! It is a fact that the S2000 has little torque, which is a function of it's having small displacement. It also has a close-ratio gearbox, which means 1st gear is kinda tall. So it does NOT get off the line for anything.

I don't think a Countach (5.0 liter, right?) should have anything like 522 lb-ft of torque! Should be more like 350 lb-ft.
(checking)
Looks like the 5.2 liter QV Countach had 369 lb-ft (71 lb-ft/liter), 455hp according to this: http://www.autozine.org/countach/countach_6.htm

If the Countach had greater torque in lb-ft than it had power in hp, it could *only* be if it didn't breathe as well up top. I.e., it would be making the same ~369 lb-ft, that number is pretty much FIXED to displacement, so you'd have to bring the power way DOWN in order to have it be less than the torque value!

Here's another way to think of power: It is directly related to how much forward thrust you can have at the wheels at a given road speed. If you're putting down 200hp to the wheels at 60mph (88ft/sec), then your forward THRUST is: 200hp * 550 ft-lb/sec / 88 ft/sec = 1250 lb.
And it doesn't matter one iota whether you're making that 200hp by spinning a 2.0 liter engine at 8200rpm, while making 128 lb-ft of torque at the engine, or whether you're making it by spinning a 3.0 liter engine at 5500rpm, making 191 lb-ft of torque at the engine. Forward THRUST at the road is the same.

No offense taken, believe me! I'm all for variety in cars and their powerplants

[DanB]

If the driver of the s2000 chooses to compete without any mods ( s2000 would have 19 points to play with )

What kinda mods would 19 points get me?!

Im sure it would give you enough mods to beat me. From what I hear, you just toss your car into the corner ( no brakes ). Im not brave enough to do that.

Greg

Nah, I brake. Too much most of the time, but occasionally not enough!

[horizenjob]

Bruce

I am all for putting the rules back to the way they were a few years ago when "cars of greater potential than FF run for FTD only." But that wasn't preferred by the BOD. Propose it!

My biggest concern is that there are almost NO entries to the current FP. Until that changes we should not divide the class.

I think the number of cars was one reason I proposed merging FF/F500 into P/A. Both of these classes saw empty events over the last year. People seemed to have at least casual interest in running an FF at the last event. One person said they would consider buying one and another said he still had one in his basement, a Crossle 35F. People are spending a lot more money to modify their production cars, so this is a cheap, safe and very high performance alternative. Especially for people who find they like driving more then wrenching.

On this subject, I am probably done with proposals for this year.

I would like to write a proposal to suggest running at least one event "old school style". For this club that would be an event with cumulative times and maybe also walk arounds during the school. I know you've expressed concern about safety because of lack of driver / car warmup during the first lap and I have been giving that some thought. I don't recollect that being a problem when the club ran that way and on the old track, the pit out was directly opposite the start / finish line across the 1/2 mile oval turn.

I'm going to propose this because the old membership felt very strongly about running a "race" as opposed to just a one lap qualifying type timing. I think it will also help differentiate us from the other clubs these days.

I do miss the walk arounds during the school. Perhaps this type of event with these changes would be better at an away track with fewer entrants and more of a benefit from walking an unfamiliar track.

The benefits to walking a track should not be under valued, at Mt. Tremblant years ago I happened to find my own starter motor in the weeds on the side of a turn. My car likes to run such a low weight that apparently it ejects and hides it's starter every once in awhile!

[962porsche]

this car is now so far from stock its not funny.over 26k in parts. stand alone,resleeved,individual throttle bodys ,rods,pistons,exhaust from heads back, so i hope the tuner that had my car for 3 plus weeks did not BS me .

I'm not offended! It is a fact that the S2000 has little torque, which is a function of it's having small displacement. It also has a close-ratio gearbox, which means 1st gear is kinda tall. So it does NOT get off the line for anything.

I don't think a Countach (5.0 liter, right?) should have anything like 522 lb-ft of torque! Should be more like 350 lb-ft.
(checking)
Looks like the 5.2 liter QV Countach had 369 lb-ft (71 lb-ft/liter), 455hp according to this: http://www.autozine.org/countach/countach_6.htm

If the Countach had greater torque in lb-ft than it had power in hp, it could *only* be if it didn't breathe as well up top. I.e., it would be making the same ~369 lb-ft, that number is pretty much FIXED to displacement, so you'd have to bring the power way DOWN in order to have it be less than the torque value!

Here's another way to think of power: It is directly related to how much forward thrust you can have at the wheels at a given road speed. If you're putting down 200hp to the wheels at 60mph (88ft/sec), then your forward THRUST is: 200hp * 550 ft-lb/sec / 88 ft/sec = 1250 lb.
And it doesn't matter one iota whether you're making that 200hp by spinning a 2.0 liter engine at 8200rpm, while making 128 lb-ft of torque at the engine, or whether you're making it by spinning a 3.0 liter engine at 5500rpm, making 191 lb-ft of torque at the engine. Forward THRUST at the road is the same.

No offense taken, believe me! I'm all for variety in cars and their powerplants

[DanB]

this car is now so far from stock its not funny.over 26k in parts. stand alone,resleeved,individual throttle bodys ,rods,pistons,exhaust from heads back, so i hope the tuner that had my car for 3 plus weeks did not BS me .

Do you have dyno sheets to refer to? Torque production for pump-fuelled, naturally aspirated, non-nitrous 4-stroke piston engines is going to be limited to ~70 - 75 lb-ft per liter of displacement. Is it supercharged or turbo'd? Nitrous?

Are you sure the torque figure of 522 is in lb-ft, and not in Newton-meters? 522 N-m would be 385 lb-ft, which brings us back into the realm of possibility!

522 lb-ft out of 5.2 liters, on pump gas, without forced-induction, without nitrous, just isn't in the cards.


When are we going to see this beast at a COM event?!
Linkie to pictures?

[chaos4NH]

This thread has been hijacked. Come on guys, don't make me delete the non-relavant posts: New formula class rules proposal is the subject. Start another thread about torque vs. HP and all that. Thanks, from your happy moderator!