New formula class rules change proposal

[offcamber09]

I Racers with fenders or windshields are wussies. But not wings.

How about a 2nd gen RX7s? Once a wuss- always a wuss? Or is it possible to be de-wussified? Can you be a partial wuss if you have fenders but no windshield?

[brucesallen]

I Racers with fenders or windshields are wussies. But not wings.

How about a 2nd gen RX7s? Once a wuss- always a wuss? Or is it possible to be de-wussified? Can you be a partial wuss if you have fenders but no windshield?

Wussiness is not for life.

Fenders with no windshield= half-wuss

[agrabau]

If I took my fenders flares off I could run SPB. The car is otherwise compliant. Pretty off topic. But to bring it back a few years ago I was running 1:23s in the car. It's come a long way. I'm sure the Atom can too.

[breakaway500]

I finally found some tires that would hold for me. Now I have to learn how to drive at warp speeds.It's a lot of fun learning,and I am glad I discovered COM, and its very talented members.

[horizenjob]

It's fun poking fun at other people's cars.

I'd like to add some more stuff here to help advocate for more Formula cars at our events though. II would like the folks in P?A and others to consider putting the FF's at least into a class with more participants. I see the deadline for rules changes so will try to submit something and show up for the meeting.

It's a good thing to encourage these cars. I didn't start out in COM with any intent or desire to own these types of cars. I started with an SSC Ford Fiesta in '78, before that a few schools and an event in a BMW 2002 around '73-'74. I had great fun with this and SSC while not very fast had great people and competition. The grass started looking greener in ST3 and after re-investing about the original purchase price of the new car I was ready. Much more fun ensued, including events at hillclimbs and Bridgehampton etc.

Things were going fine, but it was expensive developing the car and the parts were only sort of available. At that time someone in COM had brought up a FF, was running it but had it for sale for $3500 - a Crossle 16F, really a beautiful car looking like a 60's F1. ( If you drank a lot maybe ). At some point a conversation was had and an offer to take it out for a couple of laps was given. I was only curious, really.

That car was sold before I had travelled more then a couple of hundred feet towards the pit-out. To use the modern phrase: omg. OMG! During that first 200 hundred feet it became clear that this was a car that actually worked! It was just a pussy cat. Comfortable to sit in when moving, your whole body is supported. It was an effortless driving experience, and that was still in the pits. The steering was light and direct ( and fast ). The brake pedal was so solid it felt like there was a brick under it. He engine, being stock, was tame. No rough idle, no difficulty pulling away from a stop. I stalled it once the first time I let out the clutch, but they're probably geared for close to 60 or 70 in first.

On the track it was just amazing. Clearly it would take some time to get up to the limit of the car. I knew the track well, but wasn't able to push it right away. I did scare myself going in a little hot and decided to clamp on some more brakes and hope it saved my ass. What it did was just about stop the car before I even got to the turn. I had never experienced anything like that in a street car.

Now I am dusting the cob webs off after the car has only run twice in about 20 years. Sadly it needs updating and replacement of parts. I spent $80 for a new master cylinder and another $40 for calliper seals (x4). I also had to clean the points with a little lacquer thinner on a piece of paper. By my recollection I get about a year out of a set of brake pads and several years out of the disks. I probably have a lifetime supply of half used brake pads now. These were weekend replacement items on my street car.

For roughly the same money I went from competitive in the slowest car class, to competitive in the fastest class and occasionally won an FTD. The car is better then my driving and likely at this point always will be. The car connects to it's driver so well that I had a serious brain fade at one of my first events. My Fiesta was fun but this car connected to me and consumed my mental effort so totally that I became aware my jaw had gone slack and my tongue would hang out during turns! I kept closing my mouth and it would just be hanging open again by the next turn. I realised later this meant I was way over committed.

I don't want to grind an axe here, but I know how much effort people put in to their cars. Sometimes it burns you out. This is an option that will let you enjoy more driving and less wrenching.

Oh, the wrenching is so much more pleasant with a car up on sawhorses! No bolts under the car. I stripped the car to bare metal once. Every nut and bolt on the car fits in the bottom 1/3 of a small coffee can.

Perhaps we can find lap times to back up this change back to the way the rules used to be. Even in the 80's there were P/A cars that could beat me and whereas my car isn't any faster, it would seem some P/A cars would be. I think the original change was driven by some sour grapes and occurred after I stopped running the car...

Perhaps these cars are not so available anymore? At the time I ran, they had just created the aero FF's so cars like mine were very available cheap...

My favourite thing is probably shifting without the clutch. It really makes you feel you are in the program when you shift 3>4 next to a street car going for the brakes into a turn and then 100 feet deeper you hit the brakes hard and do a 4>2 shift without the clutch. It's nothing special about me, the car just does this stuff as if it was made for it. Hmmm, I guess it was!

The other big thing is I have always felt very safe in these cars. Fast street cars feel like they are on a ballistic trajectory, there is tremendous momentum. When a FF goes sideways, they slow down really fast. When you hit something, there is no extra weight in the car. It is basically all frame, engine and driver. In a street car, you hit something and there is more then a thousand pounds of bumpers, air conditioners, big batteries, alternators etc. Multiply those weights times the G's of an abrupt stop on a wall and you are talking a car packed with anvils.

Sorry to go on so long...

[breakaway500]

Yea,but you have 5000hp available at the push of a button..
I have been looking at Formula cars,but have not found one I am comfy in..yet. I would like a Zetec powered one as I have lots of motor parts and stuff. The few I have looked at with spares are in the $40k range. This is for a vehicle that can only be used on track,and are not suited for the rain. I think that is a key reason you do not see more open cars in the northeast; our lousy weather,plus the fact that the vehicle cannot be used on public roads,ever. It seems most choose a car they are somewhat familiar with and modify it,sometimes crossing the line to make it track only after a while.A formula car starts out as track only,and the only way you are going to get used to it is to drive it on track.An intimidating proposition for most I am sure. The Atom has many of the same driving characteristics as the formula car,but in a lesser platform,based on street car mechanicals,and is heavier..If I shift without the clutch I can be assured of a symphony of grinding parts The brakes and steering are very responsive. It does hold two,so there is some "wuss" factor on the Bruce scale there.However,this can be a great asset in learing how to drive the car by snagging an instructor to yell at you You can't go for a ride as a passenger in a formula car!

[cuda6666]

If I took my fenders flares off I could run SPB. The car is otherwise compliant. Pretty off topic. But to bring it back a few years ago I was running 1:23s in the car. It's come a long way. I'm sure the Atom can too.

I thought you were going to say that if you removed your fenders you could run in FP and still get FTD

[breakaway500]

Can't anyone declare into a higher class if they want?

FTD is FTD,no matter what class you are in..

[horizenjob]

I was looking for something else but ran across this ad for a Reynard FF for $8500. Look at lower right of page. These folks probably have ads in general for formula cars. I ran with them at their beginning. This car would be newer and nicer then mine. I think it's a similar price though considering inflation for 25 years.

http://www.formularacecarclubofamerica.com/

No problem with Formula cars in the rain. I didn't see it but people say my car used to put up a 200 foot long rooster tail going down the straight at the old Bryar ( now Nhis or somesuch ). Windshield wipers and windshields are just big heavy extras that get in your way. I'm not trying to sound like a hardass, but those are yet more things that are a liability. They make the car slide further in a spin and more likely to tip over.

I thought you were going to say that if you removed your fenders you could run in FP and still get FTD

Last time I ran about 8 years ago, it was a big surprise to me as the Subaru in front of me just walked away during my first school session. It didn't do that the 2nd day, but I have no idea if I could still keep up now. At least I'm prepared to be in a state of shock.

I am not so knowledable these days, but the Zetec cars would have at least a 50 lb. penalty. That wouldn't work in an FF, but maybe the cars were re-designed? A Duratech comes in at the same weight as the FF 1600 (basically) and would have an extremely big power boost.

I think formula cars with a big power boost over FF are not really entry level cars anymore.

We used to get a good number of these cars, so it's not the weather. For me when the car was moved to FP, I lost much interest in coming back for a long time. It sort of said that COM wasn't interested in having us anymore. Running Formula Atlantic and Formula Ford together is a big gap, probably more then anywhere else in our classes.

[horizenjob]

Sorry to burden this thread, but to address some cost issues that were raised here is an example add from the Formula race car site above. The below car sold for $4500 as a roller. The engine was for sale at $5000. Take a look at the pictures (pointer below), this is plenty of formula car for COM and would be huge FUN! Geez, after reading this ad it seems my car must be worth a few hundred at least

From the ad:
==============

Crossle 62F Formula Ford
Solid and predictable Crossle 62 Formula Ford. Car is ready to race. Just finished restoration the included frame refinish and replacement of all marginally worn hardware. Rack was rebushed and bearing replaced, many rod ends replaced and new bushings in rockers. All suspension parts were re plated with nickel plating. New switches and silicone hoses.
Halon Fire system
Belts good thru 2011
AMB hardwired transponder
Griffin aluminum radiator
Parts easily obtained from US suppliers and from factory in Ireland.
Chassis rebuilt w/increased torsional rigidity
Chassis Torsional Data included
Tons of documentation and history
Chassis set-up data
Complete SCCA logbooks
Original SCCA Homologation Certification
Original Import documents
Tallman roll bar
Dyno @ 111 HP w/Farley engine
Taylor gearbox rebuild 2001
Koni Shocks rebuild Sept 2006
New Foam in fuel bladder
New Master Switch
Many new rod end bearings
New 6061 floor pan riveted and adhered with Hysol epoxy
Spa Tach and dual Spa Gauges or Digital RacePak G2x dash with oil/water sensors
New stock ford clutch and flywheel (FRCCA club class legal) or Tilton clutch and flywheel
Spare parts:
Extra Nose, Side panels, short tail, nose mold
Front a-arm
Rear trailing links
Shear plates
Brake Rotors
Spare front hub bearings
Two Rear cast uprights
Left and right Front uprights
Steering linkage
Two sets Panasports w/ Goodyear 160
One set compomotives w/Goodyear rain tires
See pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/38546794@N ... 731242933/

[breakaway500]

I really think it all comes down to the performance that is available in street cars today. Never before has there been so many very capable cars being built,and at reasonable prices.20 years ago,you had very little to choose from for street/track performance and all of them needed substantial upgrades to be competitive.Now,you can buy a ZO6/GTR/STi/Evo/Cobra/Viper/M3 etc etc..and drive it to the track,and turn incredible times,on stock rubber,with a warranty!(mostly...) Maybe this is why many do not go the formula car route. It's too easy to get eyeball popping performance in a car that you can drive to work on Monday. There was a time when the only way to go fast was to build it.That reminds me....I sure did hate the 70's..

[cuda6666]

That reminds me....I sure did hate the 70's..

Me too..but mostly because of the music (e.g., The Captain and Tenile) blechh!

Oops! Sorry for the hijack...back to formula car classification.

[brucesallen]

That Reynard is inboard suspension so a good price at $8,500. Inboard is good news but it is bad news because it can't race in SCCA as Club Ford which requires outboard suspension at one end. And running in FF it won't be competitive with the newer designs. Hence the low price. Great for COM, though.

Your discussion max me wax for my 81 Crossle 45 FF that was the latest of the Club Fords. In 2000, 2001 we had as many as 13 Club Fords in New England Region of SCCA. Now I am completely sold on Spec Formula cars. No more $2,500 porting jobs on a stock $80 Ford head.

BTW: Did you know that the SCCA is about to make legal the Honda Fit engine for Formula Ford. May become known as Formula Fit.

[jlwhorf]

I think that the honda fit engine will be good for the class, but still it will be a few years before they will be showing up in junk yards. I don't know what they are new, but I suspect they will still be quite pricey as jap motors are usually are. I have always like formula cars and purpose built race cars for the track. I would rather lose a purpose built car on the track then a nice street car, maybe it is just me.

As far as formula cars go, I have always liked them, and I am having a blast in my slower than hell F440 car. But I have to say that my latemodel stock car is tons easier to drive that this car.

Also, F500 people are working on developing a package using a 4cyl 600 mc engine to be introduced as a motor option for SCCA.

[DanDarcy]

I don't want to be a full wuss so I took my fenders off so I can be a 1/2 wuss

]



Do I have to run in the FP class now ?