New formula class rules change proposal

[breakaway500]

I noticed there is a rules change proposal that affects formula prepared classification:

FORMULA PREPARED
Any open-wheeled car that is not otherwise classified.


Does this mean if I run the Atom without the fenders it will be in formula class? (fenderless is how I usually run the car)

What about a '33 Ford coupe,fenderless? Would this also be considered a formula car? (I have been looking at the Factory Five kit cars...)

Just wondering...what all the huff is about

[jlwhorf]

I noticed there is a rules change proposal that affects formula prepared classification:

FORMULA PREPARED
Any open-wheeled car that is not otherwise classified.

That would move CSR, DSR, etc to one of the other P classes.

I think it would be more accurate if the wording said, "Any single seat, open-wheel car that is not otherwise classified".

[962porsche]

that would be all open wheeled cars regardless of the number of seats and body tipe . so yes the atom would get moved . i would like to see 2 FP classes split by power to weight other wise jonathan's f500 and alike would not have a chance at a win . and adding all sports racers into one of 2 FP classes . that would put any GT (scca tipe gt1 ,2 ,3 and 4 cars )tipe car into FA classes . over the winter i plan on getting a Diasio d962r and run in PC or PB or a porsche 968 to run in SPC . unlike the under powered 944 now that is out classed in SPC a 3.0L 4 cylender 16 v porsche 968 weight 2600 LBS and stock HP at 236 should be a front runner not a moving road cone . cars should be classed to power to weight .

[breakaway500]

I put the fenders on the Atom,and it is back to PB.It is actually easily done,but I hate the look of them. No,they won't cover the tire,but that is not a requirement in PB.The Atom is a street car,that is street legal in most states .It carrys two people,and is fully registerable and will pass state safety inspections.Does it really belong in the Formula class just because it looks like a Formula car to some people? For that matter,any Caterham that does not run fenders becomes Formula.Same with any car,like the '33 Ford Coupe that does not run fenders,becomes Formula.

So,when a real Formula car comes to a COM event, no one will stand a chance of winning in the Formula class,because a real formula class car will BLOW THE DOORS OFF anything but another real formula car. (Assuming it has doors...)

And,placing F500 cars in PC will really piss off PC class drivers when a modern F500 (no offense,Jonathan..) comes to a COM event.The modern version of the F500 is an incredibly fast car,and belongs in the Formula class.


Has this really become a problem in Formula? Are people in PB screaming bloody murder because I won one lousy trophy? I don't think so...

Is the Atom out of class in PB? Again,I don't think so. Hell,Alex in his Evo ran a 1:13 last event,3 full seconds faster than my Atom. He had better not take his fenders off .... The rest of the times in PB are quite comparable to the Atom.

A Diasio d962r will eat up anything in PC. It weighs under 1k lbs and is powered by a 150hp (or more) engine with a sequential shift transmission running formula compound tires. Same as most Radicals.

Just because a car does not have fenders does NOT make it a Formula car.

Ask ANY formula car owner.

And..as I see it,Jonathan has entered his car twice,and won Formula class twice.Matter of fact,he owns the track record for the Formula class! It does not sound like he is having any trouble in Formula class.

On a similar thought line...If I buy a Stohr F1000 and put fenders on it,I should be able to run in PC. That would be fair....

[jlwhorf]

The proposal of instituting a power to weight ratio for car classifications has been mentioned in the past, and consensus was that we have no way to accurately measure it. Since I have been running with COM, FP has always had a small car count, and except for Bruce and Jack R. on occasion, most entries have been people getting some practice time before they go club racing. Mark's Atom is a competitive PB car, but would get spanked by an FA, FC, FE, etc car. I had a quick chat with Nate last Thursday and he had a thought to move F500 to PC based on the performance of my outdated F440 car. I also had a chat with Bruce earlier this year, and he thought that F500 should be moved to FP based on the performance of the modern cars running at a similar level as FF's.

[brucesallen]

FP is for real, single seat formula racing cars. We have so few entries (usually none) that we should not break up that class. Note that we have moved FV into a lower prepared class (PC) because FV is so slow. We could do that to F500 but I would not recommend that. In SCCA a good F500 will run competitive with Formula Ford. Also note that several times this year if Jono had chosed to TT he would have won FP as there were no other entries. Remember that racers with fenders or windshields or two seats or more than an inch road clearance are wussies!

Also note that until a few years ago FP was limited to cars "with performance up to Formula Ford. Cars with higher potential shall run for FTD only." That would include FA, FB, FC, FE. We used to have a few Formula Fords.

Mark's car is just another street hot rod like my Lotary 7. It was SPB (4 cyl trubo) until he added slicks and dropped the windshield. That made him Prepared.

[962porsche]

so how would you put every one on an equal playing field ? my 944 is way out classed in SPC if i change it to meet ST4 rules then i will be out classed in 944 spec-cup which the car was built for . the cars handling is grate but it has no balls . 2800 LBS wet with driver . so i could keep running it as a back marker or get an other car just to do time trails . run the 968 or d962r and just use the 944 for cup-spec racing . i do like the way NASA classes there TT's at least the 944 is a front runner then . when i go to a comscc events . i go just for seat time unless it rains that is the only time i have a chance at placing with the 944 . in the rain its all driver and handling HP can't help you there . what it comes down to is you can make some of the people happy some of the time but not all the people happy all the time . think of a better way and submit a rule change that puts all the cars on an equal playing field . as it is now there are cars that are way out classed for the classes there running in .

[Mark Swinehart]

David -
If you ran in ST4 this year, the top five places in Overall Points in that class currently would be:
Mark Swinehart 64.33;
David Boutelle 51.33;
Jeff Wasilko 46.33;
Barry Gammon 36.33; and
David Guertin 30.33.

[962porsche]

mark how did you determine that ? was it by the times i ran ?

[Mark Swinehart]

Yes, that is how finishing postions are determined.

[962porsche]

maybe i will use the 944S i have. weld in some camber plates and start running that car in ST4 ?

[horizenjob]

As a former Formula Ford driver in COM I would like to comment on Formula Prepared.

I think it was very discouraging when the FF was moved out of PA. We used to have as many as 6 or 7 FF at our events, often 3 or so. FF ran in PA for some 20 years before it was moved, and it's not clear there was a good justification. People did win in them, but well prepared Corvettes and Porsches were also beating them.

I am somewhat unsure what to propose, but lumping the Formula cars together doesn't make a lot of sense. By definition they are at different performance levels. I think the gap between an FF and a FA is larger then you'll find in other classes: 2x power, 2x rim width plus wings.

It's a good thing to encourage people to have these types of cars in our club. They have a good safety record in our club and are designed for the job the do. I don't ever recall a formula car having an accident at a COM event. OK, there was the F1 Ocela, but that was an unusual case. They encourage good driving by being responsive and adjustable.

After the creation of FP we seemed to lose most of those cars. That's not really a good thing. COM has always been a street car oriented club, with a heavy leaning to real performance equipment. The Formula cars provide a good option for folks that are leary of spending the big bucks to prepare the fastest street cars like Mustangs . By putting FF in the same prepared classes as other cars you encourage the mixing of people that gives exposure to these alternatives.

[brucesallen]

As a former Formula Ford driver in COM I would like to comment on Formula Prepared.

I think it was very discouraging when the FF was moved out of PA. We used to have as many as 6 or 7 FF at our events, often 3 or so. FF ran in PA for some 20 years before it was moved, and it's not clear there was a good justification. People did win in them, but well prepared Corvettes and Porsches were also beating them.

I am somewhat unsure what to propose, but lumping the Formula cars together doesn't make a lot of sense. By definition they are at different performance levels. I think the gap between an FF and a FA is larger then you'll find in other classes: 2x power, 2x rim width plus wings.

It's a good thing to encourage people to have these types of cars in our club. They have a good safety record in our club and are designed for the job the do. I don't ever recall a formula car having an accident at a COM event. OK, there was the F1 Ocela, but that was an unusual case. They encourage good driving by being responsive and adjustable.

After the creation of FP we seemed to lose most of those cars. That's not really a good thing. COM has always been a street car oriented club, with a heavy leaning to real performance equipment. The Formula cars provide a good option for folks that are leary of spending the big bucks to prepare the fastest street cars like Mustangs . By putting FF in the same prepared classes as other cars you encourage the mixing of people that gives exposure to these alternatives.

What you say about PA being the highest class - including all formula cars was true prior to 1991. IN 1991 Formula Libre was added for formula cars with greater porformance that F2000 (F Continental). IN 1992 all formula cars wre moved to Formula Libre (FV notable absent). IN 1994 the class was changed to Formula Handicapped and FF, DSR, SCA were moved back to PA. IN 1995 the class was called Formula Prepared and the FF, DSR and SCA were moved back to FP. I lost my rules books after that and I am tired of searching but at one point we made all cars "with greater performance than FF" compete for FTD only. Then we changed that back.

We sure like to fiddle with this class. I believe we have so few cars in FP that no one can expect serious competition in this class so we should just leave it alone or maybe eliminate it an make all such cars compete for FTD only. (spoken as a membe of this class sometimes)

[horizenjob]

Wow, I'm impressed on the history there.

It seems notable that FF's aren't being treated like other cars in the sense that there isn't an attempt to place them in a class based on their performance. I think it can and used to be done, but I don't know how to keep a person with a production based car from feeling that it's not a fair match. The cars just look too different etc.

Since I have an FF, I think a good choice for a cutoff would be those fancy Formula cars with wings and all those camshafts and stuff.

[brucesallen]

I simply hope you get out there. We need more open-wheelers. Racers with fenders or windshields are wussies. But not wings.