Longer session times for run groups 1&2

[breakaway500]

Then,how about three run groups,and the instructors can run with any of them,any time. That way,you have two,30 minute sessions for everyone before lunch.
Divy up the three run groups into beginners/solo candidates, solo candidates/pre-licensed, licensed and..all the rest?

Just thinking aloud...I really liked the 30 minute run times,that's all. . Maybe the groups would be too big? I don't know. What's too big? 30 to a group? 20? 3?

Passing on the warm-up could be allowed in ADVANCED groups. It can be as controlled as any other passing,done only in the passing zones etc. It seemed to work well with NEQ. I was surprised the first time I went out and could pass on the warm up. Matter of fact,I got it on film,upside down. Ha! It was nice to be able to get up to speed fast,that's all. If I had stayed behind the 1st. car out,I would have run out of film before the laces,and started a freight train. It did not bother me at all to watch my mirrors on the warm up laps once I realized there were no yellow flags being shown.
If I remember right,the first group out in the morning always did one yellow flag lap (no passing),advanced or instructors.

[agrabau]

I don't care if there are 8 more minutes per session but I would like to be able to pass, even if it's only allowed on the outside so as to only endanger myself, without a point by. This would mean more quality laps.

[mug23]

More time on the clock would be wonderful but, for me, passing is on the top of my list. In regards to passing, does COM have pass anywhere without a point by for the advance group? If not, how come?

[breakaway500]

My thoughts...passing anywhere with a point by...maybe for licensed groups. Could be tried on a trial basis,if approved some day.

Passing anywhere with no point bys...that is pretty much racing. I would vote no, if asked. Unless, COM starts holding races...

[agrabau]

Plenty of non-racing motorcycle groups have survived years with a :"pass on the outside" rule which requires no point-by.

My "point" is that more track time doesn't equate to quality track time if I'm slowing down every 100 ft and waiting for someone to put their finger up, getting back on the gas et cetera. That simulates more of a race lap than a time trial lap.

I do understand those who have reservations about such a proposal though and I don't want to beat a dead horse.

[breakaway500]

The only time I get held up on track is the freight trains. You get three or four cars bunched up and it is laps before you are clear again.Ducking into the pits helps sometimes,not always.I find passing and being passed by point by to work well.Occasionally you may get a slow point by,but it's unusual. Allowing passing on every lap but the cool down lap would help keep things flowing.
I don't think there is any way you can run at 100% time trial speeds with other people on track.It just is not possible most of the time.There are always people pitting in, pitting out and circulating.

I find I have to practice time trial speeds when I get a section of track open,and take advantage of that time. The more time out on track,the more able I am to practice new sections.

More time is better.

[John F]

Passing on the warm-up lap with a point would be great, but would only have a benefit at away tracks. NHMS is small and always has the highest volume of cars, so you're going to be behind someone on the warmup lap no matter what. I also agree that you can't short change the students. It's tough enough getting new blood without penalizing them for being new. The only real way to get more track time at NHMS is the open test sessions. If you're licensed you qualify.

[breakaway500]

I think the outlap passing would work well at any track. It makes sense to allow someone whose pace is quicker to pass anytime it is safe,with a point by. Some people just warm up slowly...that's fine,but I don't want to be held back because of it.There is limited time on track,so make the best use of it,I say. I don't see the problem with warm up passing.Enlighten me as to the drawbacks,please.

Looks like this Thursday is an open test day at NHMS in the A.M. for cars. Hmm...

[jlwhorf]

Looks like this Thursday is an open test day at NHMS in the A.M. for cars. Hmm...

NHMS changed it open track schedule, motorcyles only for the rest of this year.

Jonathan

[breakaway500]

Damn! The Ariel Atom almost qualifies as a bike..

[rousespointer]

Just want to comment on the number of run groups. With four run groups, two drivers can share one car. Running a car in two consecutive 22 minute sessions is not good...brakes hot, etc. Spacing out the scheduling of joint driver cars is an important consideration, both for the drivers and instructors. Maybe increasing the session times from 22 to 25 minutes would be good if
we could accomodate that.

[chaos4NH]

Just my 2 cents. I like the idea of one lap under yellow from a safety stand point. The track is always changing, dirt thrown on, fluids that cannot be easily seen, dead skunk in the middle of the road, etc. The one lap under yellow allows drivers an exploratory lap prior to going all out.

[breakaway500]

Sam,I can see the one lap under yellow first run group of the day,as kinda a critter run if need be,but after that,it is just plain slowing things up. Most tracks have staff out on track before any run groups in the A.M. anyway,(sweeping,etc) so it's no biggie to go hot from lap one. Like my instructor says, "Make every lap count".

[chaos4NH]

Unless instructed differently, it will be one standing yellow lap when I run the event. If you want to go balls out from the get go, be the first out in the run group. I will let you find out what has changed since your last trip out. Yellow does not mean go slow, it is only a no passing for one lap, so get out there first.

[WillM]

We need 5 run groups: 2 for students, 2 for licensed drivers, 1 for instructors. Anytime we drop a group, it is the instructor group, and we ask them to slot their driving time into one of the experienced groups. This is done to maximize track time for all.

We are pretty flexible on run session lengths, mostly at away events. The run groups are not set in stone but are often replicated because they fit our needs. This season's schedule is heavy at NHMS and light on "away" events. As others have pointed out, we do run longer sessions at the away events. At WGI, we ran 30 minute sessions. Tremblant restricts the amount of cars on track to 30. Without that restriction we could have had slightly better use of track time. That said, we still ran a 'modified' schedule with longer sessions.

The first NHMS event this year did have longer sessions. 30 minutes each, I believe (but I reserve the right to be wrong (I don't have my files in front of me now)). In any event, student registrations were very light and we were able to accommodate all students into a single group. Actually, we had a dual-driver student team so one of the students ran in one of the licensed groups. That did NOT go well and we will not be repeating that process.

One solution to increase run session length would be to reduce the amount of run sessions. We've (or at least I've) considered it before. There are trade offs. On one hand, longer = better for experienced groups (to a point). Less time clearing the track, more continuous time behind the wheel, and theoretically more "clean" laps. On the other hand, miss a session due to a car issue, and you've lost a lot of time. Then, of course, there are several of "our" cars that are lucky to complete a 22 minute session. :LOL:

A single full-course yellow lap to begin each run session is a good thing, and I expect it to continue. In addition to the reasons given above, ther eis also the likelihood that you may have adjusted something on your car in between sessions and in doing so screwed yourself. Not that I know any racers who have left the paddock with lug nuts finger-tight, oil caps missing, a missing brake pad, or unlatched hood pins.

Of all the options and suggestions mentioned in this thread, opening up another passing zone or 2 at NHMS would be most likely, but there really isn't much room to do it. Baby steps...