Spec Miata classification?

[CP]

I've essentially got a Spec Miata, though I haven't run with the SCCA-mandated restrictor plate yet. My TT results suck because I'm up against ITA cars with loads of mods, including engine, coilovers, modded ECUs, etc (refer to the cars of Will and Gordon). I'm in SPC because I don't have carpets, the only reason I'm in this class. I'd be placing much better if I were being compared to cars more my equal. Any chance the classifications will be modified in the off season to better place my car against similar setup Miatas?

I'm not complaining about my lap times here, because I think they're pretty good for a SM, but I just can't compete against the other more powerful cars in my "class."

[chaos4NH]

The only reference I find to carpeting in ST says that rear carpet and seats may be removed. There is nothing to prevent you from restoring the front carpeting and running in ST4, as long as there are no other mods that prevent classifying your car in ST4.

[Stynger]

Make a request.

http://www.comscc.org/rules/submission-form/

[WillM]

The only reference I find to carpeting in ST says that rear carpet and seats may be removed. There is nothing to prevent you from restoring the front carpeting and running in ST4, as long as there are no other mods that prevent classifying your car in ST4.

First of all, the Miatas are not any where near competitive in SPC. I've never been a fan of how the SP and P classes are based (basically cyl. count), but the real old-timers are quick to point out how well it has worked, and I agree to a certain extent. I think displacement would be a better guideline, but even that would be flawed.

Sam makes a good point. The SCCA allows carpeting and the like, so it would not be a problem to retrofit in your car to get back to ST. In ST you would have to run stock emissions equipment (cat), but since this is also a street car, I'd assume you are all set on that front.

I have looked into a total points-based system (similar to how NASA classes cars). The more I read about these systems, the more I like 'em. Seems to create more diverse (and perhaps evenly balanced) competition. A points based system also seems to inspire creativity with modifications and the like. No more would fender flares or a tacked-on wing, all on their own, put a car in a high-prep class.

Luckily, I think the BoD and our Chief Steward Nate Hine have made a lot of progress in the past couple of seasons. The rule book gets better and more pertinent to current cars each season.

I just looked at the NASA Time Trial rule book. My car started in class TTE. The points I added up (+26), push the car up to class TTD. If I swapped Hankooks/Hoosiers for Toyo RA-1's (-5 points) and installed the carpet in my trunk (-1 point) and on the package shelf (-1 point), the car would be TTD legal (26 - 5 - 1 - 1 = 19 points, no change in class).

With my earlier chassis, I could even swap in the more powerful '99 motor and stay in TTD. That is awesome on many levels, as several COM members (myself included) have petitioned to allow popular engine swaps in ST (1.6 - 1.8 Mazdas, 1.8 - 2.0 Sentras, etc), and Honda engine swaps are pretty common these days.

If I really wanted to have fun, I can think of a bunch of ways to use up 14 points and stay in TTD. This is where the creativity comes in. In Cy's situation and in several other COM classing situations, I think a system like this would help even the playing field, and boosting competition, which I feel is one of the things that sets COM apart from other clubs in the northeast.

Anyone care to take a few minutes and class their cars?
Base classes are listed here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf
Classification worksheet here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time ... n-form.pdf

Please take a moment and share your results!

[Dave_G]

I'm also a fan of points-based classing. That's the system we use in the Sports Car Club of Vermont for autocross classing.

Just for fun I went through the NASA scheme that Will posted. My Miata starts in class TTF +14 points, and I have added +25 more points in mods, which bumps me up one class to TTE. But if I added one more point I would get bumped up an additional class to TTD with the Spec and ITA Miatas, where I really would not want to be.

[brucesallen]

Almost ten years ago I actually proposed a handicap type system and we had a conference meeting about them. They were rejected as being too difficult to police. I have since then been amazed at how well the SP simplistic SP categories have worked-- and easy to tech! After looking at the NASA points system I cannot imagine the stewards' task. Or does NASA go strictly on the honor system? How many hours would it take for a COM steward to tech a car after protest or breaking a rocord?

[Grippy]

Hi Cy,

Just to be clear here, my car is actualy an ST4 car, I chose to try to compete in SPC (dumb move on my part). I have a stock junkyard motor, full interior, cage, coilovers etc.

The rules state that not every car is guaranteed to be competetive in any given class. SPC is a tough class for any underpowered stock engined car. Great handling will only get you so far. You have a few choices.
1. accept that a Miata probably will not win in SPC and just try to improve your personal lap times.
2. build an engine or do a swap to give yourself a fighting chance in SPC (cost prohibitive for me).
3. do whatever is needed to move to ST4 where you could be more competetive.

You could also work on your car setup etc, there are better choices than the spec miata pieces. Also in ITA you are not allowed to do much to the engine and what you are allowed doesn't yield much benefit, which is why I have chosen to keep my engine stock. The rules in SPC are much more open to modification.

Gordon

[ChrisS]

A spec miata with a passenger seat and carpets is ST4 legal (no door panels or door glass if nascar door bars require them to be removed)
Take out the carpet and it is SPC
Take out the passanger seat and it is PC
The lap times for the same car less a carpet will be the same and I would say that the passenger seat isn't worth much as far as lap times go either. This doesn't make a lot of sense because you could add a bolt or weld in petty bar and delete the passenmger seat and have a capeted ST4 car or uncarpetted SPC car.

I agree that it would be difficullt for the stewarts to police a points classification system but that is the responibility of the participant and competators. I think it would help get COM participants if there were more class choiices though. We have one car that is SM/ST4 and another that is ST7 with EMRA, but when we run with COM the cars are both classed as SP. If they were SCCA they would be SM and limited prep HP respectfully. My point being that 4 cylinders isn't a good measure of a class regardless of the mods. Add to that the fact that small mods like deleteing carpets and a passanger seat can move a car from ST to SP or P seems unfair. What would people think about changing the ST rule that reads "Rear seat and rear carpet may be removed." to "50% of the vehicles factory seating capacity can be removed. Rear carpets in sedans and all carpets in 2 seat cars may be removed."

[Dave_G]

A spec miata with a passenger seat and carpets is ST4 legal

You would also need to install a cat to be legal for ST4.

[jeffw]

Are gutted doors w/o glass (due to a cage that sticks into the door) legal in ST?

It sounds like it wouldn't be:

Cars must use street running gear, e.g., operating wipers and wiper motor; head and tail lights; interior consisting of
headliner, door panels, and side panels, DOT glass, heater and defroster. All glass must be in place as delivered from
the factory. Front and rear bumpers must be present. Rear seat and rear carpet may be removed.


EDIT: Nevermind, found the newish rule:

In all classes, interior panels may be modified or removed in order to accommodate the installation of full roll cages

[WillM]

The way I see it, running on the points system would add a level of accountability and would not change the difficulty of teching cars. Under the points system, competitors would present a completed classification worksheet to the steward whenever their car is teched for a track record or protest. The steward(s) would compare the car to the worksheet. Simple pass/fail. We'd still be bound to the honor system for many mods (engine internals, boost upgrades, etc.).

The first time I reviewed the NASA worksheet I felt overwhelmed, but in the end found I could weed out the dyno and other stuff and simply focus on the points. Finished in 10 minutes. Have since filled it out a couple of more times in much less time.

Thanks to those who have gone through the exercise. Would be interesting to apply the NASA (or similar) points system to all the cars that ran in one or two of our events, and see how the results compare.

[chaos4NH]

Interesting, the Grocery Getter with current minor mods (CAI, CBE and coilovers) still falls in TTD and would run against will's Miata. Looking at past times, that would be very interesting with me getting wooped at NHMS, but being very much competitive at other tracks. Now, given a driver of greater skill that I, the GG would pretty much be the TTD shining star.
At first I felt the logistics would be a nightmare for the stewards, but Will is correct, and I quote:

The way I see it, running on the points system would add a level of accountability and would not change the difficulty of teching cars. Under the points system, competitors would present a completed classification worksheet to the steward whenever their car is teched for a track record or protest. The steward(s) would compare the car to the worksheet. Simple pass/fail. We'd still be bound to the honor system for many mods (engine internals, boost upgrades, etc.).

[962porsche]

i was trying not to put in my 2 cents on this post . but here it goes . the porsce 944 i'm running is out classed in SPC . the car was build to nasa 944 spec class . the car it all stock , drive line ,exhaust with cat. , suspension we can change our front struts to adjustable coil overs but we have to keep the stock spring rate of 350 LBS. . sway bars stock .stock wheel size .stock brakes but we can change our pads to full race and any rotor that is stock size and add cooling ducts .for nasa we can remove the carpet and gut the doors for the nascar door bars and change side glass to lexan . the stock weight of the car was 2649.6 LBS. wet with out a driver . after i added the roll cage i put the car back on the scales and its now 2651.2 LBS wet with out the driver . the biggest thing that puts me into SPC is the pickup points for the roll cage that are 4.25 inches past the rear wheels . i don't under stand how this is such a big performance gain ? the 2.5L motor puts out-148 wheel HP with tork at 150 flbs . no monster there ! the best time at this car did at NHIS was a 131.56 not bad for what this car is in stock trim . but not competitive in SPC . the top speed of the car is 146 MPH but it takes time for me to get there . so on a long straight i can get by the miatas with shorter legs that top out somewere about 130mph. but the rules are the rules ? i go to have fun and for seat time thats the big thing for me .

[FredRoy]

When trying to classify my car, I ran into a small problem... Aftermarket forced induction leads you to: "All of these cars MUST be assessed by the National TT Director for re-classification into a new TT Base Class"

Oops!

However, there is no doubt that I would profit from a points based system. Everybody who has not modified a car to the limits of the rules (or even selected a car to be competitive in class) under the current COMSCC system will profit from a sudden rule change. This will stay true until people reoptimize their setups to the limits of the new rules.

Under current COMSCC rules, my car (turbocharged miata) falls into SPB (essentially with a bunch of Subarus ). My current setup has pretty much the same straight line performance as a stock STI. I am no where near performance levels of SPB STI's... But at the end of the day, it does not change much because I decided not to make my daily driver more competitive (or maybe my wallet decided that ).

And after all, I agree with 962porsche... I'm also there for fun and seat time (mainly at Mosport, where we had lots of seat time! )

Fred

[brucesallen]

However, there is no doubt that I would profit from a points based system. Everybody who has not modified a car to the limits of the rules (or even selected a car to be competitive in class) under the current COMSCC system will profit from a sudden rule change. This will stay true until people reoptimize their setups to the limits of the new rules.



Fred

You have hit on the main point in competition: Design and prep to the rules. People that are serious about COM time trial competition choose their car and mods to be optimum for the rules. And clubs have different rules. It took an awfully long time before SPC was not dominated by Spec Miatas. I was amazed because if a Spec Miata meets SCCA rules it is no where near the legal mods for SPC. Finally we see E30 M3 and Honda S2000s dominating--- and even these cars are allowed to hop up their engines more than presently. SP allows and promotes wild engine expenditures. Spec Miatas with ther stock engines haven't got a chance and they should not have a chance. Move to SS or ST.