Real street tires for SS classes?

COMtech · Post by **COMtech** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:33 am

Dan, 
 
One other thing to keep in mind for you in the Z: It's light. It's among the lightest cars that regularly runs with COM, and has a relatively wide tire for that weight. Due to this, your car is abnormally easy on tires. Having watched you drive both the Z and the 240, it was noticeable to me that you were not driving your (daily driver) 240 SX as hard as you drive your (you still have the 240 if it gets wrecked) Z. The comment made about tire wear in autocrosses vs. track events earlier in this thread was absolutely correct. Having driven three on the street, the 240 SX is also relatively well balanced and easy on the tires compared to most of the cars that run in SS clases with COM, most of which either understeer like pigs (any FWD or AWD car), or have the capability of destroying a set of rear stret tires by getting on the power too hard coming out of 3 at NHIS (C4 & C5 Corvette, Viper). This change would very strongly benefit cars that remain (RWD cars <300 HP), which, in SS trim, both of your cars (along with my Miata and 944) fit into. 
 
I do check the tires for all the cars I personally tech, when I check for wheel bearing play, I run my hand across the surface of the tire. If I notice something abnormal, I will mention it to the owner of the car. 
 
Kevin

therooster · Post by **therooster** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:41 pm

I think that a simple solution to the problem would be to limit tire size in the Showroom Stock classes (like the SCCA) to the factory tire size. Eliminate COM Rule IX Exterior - Wheels and Tires Section 4.a and 4.b 
 
Would this change a whole lot? 
 
How many SS drivers are using tires larger than stock? (I know the answer just want discussion.)

Tony Russo · Post by **Tony Russo** » Sun Nov 03, 2002 5:50 pm

It is true that its possible to run on street rubber and not ruin them. It is also possible that you may ruin them. 
 
The main point I was trying to make is that if you can have your street tires last 3 years of nomal driving and have a set of race rubber last (1 + years in my case) I feel the $500 for a years worth of rubber is well worth the assurance that I'm not doing anything with my street tires that they weren't designed for and that i won't/don't have the possiblity of ruining them. 
 
Tony

COMtech · Post by **COMtech** » Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:12 am

>It is true that its possible to run on street rubber and not ruin them. It is also possible that you may ruin them. 
 
Tony, 
 
It is possible to run street tires and not ruin them under certain circumstances. In the majority of cases, if you aren't ruining the street tires you're not driving the car anywhere near its maximum potential. As I said earlier, at the April NHIS event, I felt like I was taking it easy running my street SSA Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS and only ran 3 sessions of 5 laps each (15 total, including in & out laps) and all 4 tires chunked. The fact is that street tires are not designed for the added stress and strain of track use, just as the street legal DOT approved Hoosier track tires have "not intended for highway use" printed on them. 
 
Kevin 
 
Kevin

turtlevette · Post by **turtlevette** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:07 pm

My interest in COM is to have fun and get as much track time as possible. I am not interested in competing with anybody. I fear that playing with the rules in an attempt to make time trials more competitive may discourage members such as myself. I was told a set of racing tires would make my car a lot more fun to drive. This is something relatively cheap that i can do that will not affect my ability to drive the car on the street daily. 
 
Does this mean if we want to run the racing tires we will be in a higher class where we would have to hack up our daily drivers to add a rollbar, racing seat and special harnesses? This is too involved and expensive for those of us on the fringe of this sport. 
 
I would still like to have the right to run the racing tires to make my car more fun to drive. I am not going to beat anyone in my class with an old 165hp corvette. These class groupings are apples racing oranges anyway.

Dan Baldwin · Post by **Dan Baldwin** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:07 pm

Tires are far from cheap and easy. As far as I know, ST only requires harnesses (race seat and roll bar not required), an easy installation. Even an SP-required roll bar installation is easy and cheap compared to a season of lugging tires around and changing them at every event. Swapping a race seat into my car was easier than a 4-tire change. Tires are easily the 3rd most expensive part of running a COM season, behind entry fees and lodging. For heavier and more powerful cars with bigger tires, they're probably THE biggest single expense. And for a car driven to and from events, tires are THE biggest PITA. No contest. 
 
It's a shame COM doesn't have an "arrive and drive" class. 
Then again, I have heard one valid argument against street tires: Tire chunking. 
Apparently, today's cars are so morbidly overweight even the best street tires will come apart 
under track usage. Remember when Civics and Golfs/Rabbits weighed less than 2000 lb.? More like 2800 lb today. More's the pity. 
 
Driving a stock car (generally inadequately suspended to fully utilize the best street tires) on race tires is NOT my idea of fun. More pitching and rolling than a rowboat in high seas. 
 
The rule didn't pass, by the way. It still seems a good one to me, though. 
Still, I won't bring it up again (unless I find myself competing in SS regularly, that is!). 
 
Dan "I hate loading/unloading/changing tires" Baldwin 
'71 240Z 3.1 
#7 SPB

comsccAdmin · Post by **comsccAdmin** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:23 pm

As a couple of data points, I have run both of my Corvettes on "regular" street tires for all 6 years I have run with COM. I drive to the track, drive on the track, and drive home. So far, I've been lucky enough not to get a flat, but I do bring a full-sized spare with me just in case. I've never chunked or flat-spotted a tire, and they have always worn evenly across the face of the tread, and I've gotten an average of 20,000 street miles and 12 track days out of a set of 4 tires (just about 2 years of driving and events for me). And the Corvette is arguably one of the heaviest production cars you see on the track. 
 
What does this all mean in relation to what has already been said? Probably nothing. It just goes to show that every car is probably different, and different tires will respond differently to the rigors of track use in any particular application. 
 
Personally, I'll probably keep using street tires on the track, because it's provided all the fun that I need, and I rarely run TimeTrials, so I'm not worried about being competitive. 
 
As others have noted, there are compelling reasons for using track-specific tires on the track, and even though I was one of only two who voted in favor of this rule, I certainly understand why most folks don't think we should suddenly remove them. For those of us who want to "play", we can stay on street tires. For those who want to compete, the option of track tires remains, albeit a near requirement to be competitive. 
 
I guess that's racing... 
 
-Herb

blafromboise · Post by **blafromboise** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:18 pm

I dropped my support for street tires only because very few other drivers supported it. I did propose that a trophy be given out for the fastest time on street tires. This would be a way to give novices a better chance to get a trophy and keep some of the underfunded/low budget drivers/members some of the glory and hopefully keep them coming back. 
-Any driver who has won a class would not be allowed to compete for this trophy. 
 
Brian LaFromboise

Dan Baldwin · Post by **Dan Baldwin** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:42 pm

Street tire only rule didn't pass, of course. I still think the idea has some merit, maybe something like what Brian suggested. Might be cool to have something for the fastest car driven to the event, as well<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> 
 
If Herb can keep tires under his Corvette, surely most cars could with the best street rubber. Then again, in this day and age of bloated overweight cars, the Corvette is, shockingly enough, fairly lightweight! I mean, really, 3600lb. M3s? 3700lb '03 Mustang Cobras? 3300lb 350Z(X)? When/where does this weight-gain end?! 
 
DanB

Jack ffr1846 · Post by **Jack ffr1846** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:02 pm

I'm chiming in, in favor of street tires. 
 
I have run a number of cars in SS on DOT R compound tires and "found" Azenis a couple of years ago on a student's Honda. I bought them the next week. I've now run 14 track days on them plus over 13k street miles. They do not chunk. They are cheap and they are sticky and predictable enough to run them safely in a school or TT. 
 
I noticed Kevin's post stating that he chunked his street tires. (same car as mine) Kevin...what were the tires you ran? If they were the RE-92's, original on the RS, I did the same thing at first. They don't cut it. 
 
I believe that there might be room for a "run what you brung" kind of class....for street tires. It's pretty clear that R compounds are faster...I have a set for the RS as well. Anyone who wanted to get Dot R's could then voluntarily bump into whatever the next class is. 
 
Now, I'd also want us to do some research and suggest particular tires that can hold up on the track. I'm sure that there are others besides Azenis and S03's that will. 
 
jack

COMtech · Post by **COMtech** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:52 pm

Yes, I was running the original tires on the RS, and I'm sure that there will be tires out there that won't chunk on some cars (side note: at 2700 lbs and AWD, the 2.5 RS is light and relatively easy on tires, especially on a track that's as easy on tires as NHIS is). My point is, I haven't. The World Challenge rain tires chunk in 2 laps in the dry...off the shelf Toyo T1-S's. The Yokohama AVS tires I had, which was the best hybrid tire until about 3 years ago, chunked in 3 laps on my 2nd time trial weekend. There are very few tires that will hold up for a 3 lap time trial, and they are certainly not available in all sizes. 
 
If there is a "run what you brung" street tire class, I would recommend it be a totally independent class and any drivers who participate in it not be eligeable for year end trophies. 
 
Also, I don't see any way to police shaved tires, which adds more expense and will have to be done to be competitive in any non R compound class. As I said earlier, with a very few exceptions such as light RWD/AWD cars the only option to save the tires is to go slow. The only reason you can get away with it in autocrosses is that you get more track time in a 3 lap time trial than you do in an entire day of autocrossing. 
 
As far as the tires not wearing out goes, I have a set of Toyo Proxes on my Miata that ran 4 hours at Morosoon a SM, and on my SCCA SSB Miata (only things that make it not COM SSB legal are no trunk carpet and this wheel/tire combo, slower than the COM SSB legal Hoosiers I have) 2 days (including 45 minutes straight at one point) at Mosport, and 2 days at Lime Rock. The tires are still useable. They're not fast, but they're only at about 1/2 tread. New these tires are $125 each. 
 
There are several other added expense issues that haven't been mentioned (street tires have more drop off than DOT track tires, added sensitivity to alignment, among others), but the net result is that the only thing that is gained is the convenience of not having to bring spare tires to the track, and the net cost ends up being more than with DOT track tires for most cars. 
 
Kevin

BlueTT · Post by **BlueTT** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:06 am

I like the idea of arrive and drive, I'm not crazy about the encumbrances of having a trailer. However using street tires on the track requires a great deal of discipline. I've now done 2 COM events and I can't resist on the second day without the instructor to squeal my tires. I was at Summit Point and I told myself that I was just going to drive smoothly and try to learn proper cornering. I went out on the first session and came up behind someone. They gave me a passing signal that I ignored. Next corner I get and ignore another passing signal. On to the front straight I get an emphatic pass signal and decide to go ahead. I get and take a few more pass signals and before you know it my tires are howling at every corner. The session ends and I find that I've ripped the rubber off down to cord material. Fortunately I drove down on snow tires, with summer tires on roof, and therefore had snows to use for the time trial. 
 
My instructor at Mosport recommended that I get Kumhos. I did, but I didn't bring them to Summit Point because I've never driven that track. I'm hoping to go back to Mosport with the Kumhos. My expectation is that I'll be a lot less worried that a tire is going to fall apart on me on the track. Unless we can be guaranteed rain, I don't think a street tire only class will live up to its expectations. 

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub25.ezboard.com/bcomsportscarc ... >BlueTT</A> at: 4/23/03 11:12:13 am

Jack ffr1846 · Post by **Jack ffr1846** » Tue May 27, 2003 8:12 am

Well, I've gone from my light RS to a heavy S4 and will be running Azenis street tires for at least this year. 
 
In observing some of the driving events of many clubs, I've noticed that schools tend to draw a majority of street tire'd cars. Indeed, these will run fine when not pushed beyond their limits. For a more competitive driving style, Azenis, Kumho MX, Toyo T1S and Bridgestone S02/S03 are certainly up to the task. Sure, you don't want an all season tire for the track, but there are options. 
 
jack #29 00 S4

Snow · Post by **Snow** » Tue May 27, 2003 4:03 pm

Jack brought this up on the Subaru forums (there's a group of track 
addicts over there and a growing bunch that run with COM) and, as one 
of the SS drivers, I figured I'd chime in here. 
 
I would hate to see race tires prohibited from SS. For me it's not an 
issue of competiveness but of driver development. I want to push as 
hard as I can in stock form before modifying the car at all. This 
extends, in a way, to tires; I've gone from S03s, to Azenis to 
Victoracers. Basically, I step up to a grippier tire each time I feel 
I'm hitting the limits of the tire I'm on. Eventually I'll swap out 
the suspension and move into ST1 on Hoosiers. 
 
Someone mentioned restriction of tires to stock sizes. I'd be opposed 
to this as well. Being restricted to stock wheel sizes already 
restricts you to a fairly small range of tires. Restricting tire sizes 
would be worse. I like being able to experiment with as many tires as 
my wheel sizes will allow within SS. 
 
I guess it's worth asking what you want to accomplish with a street 
tire rule for SS. If it's about making the class more accessible, I 
don't see the point. You can already arrive-and-drive if you want to. 
If it's about making the class more stock, well, I guess I can see the 
point, but I don't think you'll have anyone left running in SS if you 
do that. The stock tires on many new cars are pretty awful. So it 
seems to me that the motivation stems more from a desire to 
arrive-and-win. 
 
The suggestion Jack made on the Subaru forum was a separate class for 
cars running street tires. I don't object to this idea in principle, 
but I think that a lot of COM classes run pretty lean on competitors 
as it is. Breaking people out into street tire classes and race tire 
classes would, I think, dilute the classes to the point that everyone 
goes home with a first place trophy. And then what's the point? 
 
But it doesn't seem fair that folks that don't want to bother race 
tires should be forced to resign themselves to never taking home a 
trophy. 
 
So, my suggestion was to record a little bit more information in the 
time trial results. Ideally, stick an extra field on the time cards 
where people can jot down the tires that they're running. Minimally, 
a set of check boxes for "race" or "street." 
 
I think this would be interesting information to record anyway, and it 
would provide some recognition for the folks who are running on street 
tires. If you see a car on street tires that's 1/10th of a second 
behind a car on Hoosiers, you can use your brain and deduce which is 
really faster. 
 
Rain would probably wreak havoc on this, as people scramble to decide 
which tires to run. But rain wreaks havoc on everything anyway. And 
actually, I think that's another data point worth recording in the 
time trial results. Did it rain? Did it rain all day or only part of 
the day? 
 
Anyway, I'd be up for anything that doesn't limit my tire choices in SS. 
 
Sorry for the long post, but theres my $2.94. 
 
 
-James 
SSGT WRX #3 
 
PS: Just don't retroactively record tires in the results. It's too 
embarassing that John Shost beat me on snow tires! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> 
 
Edit: I should add that I know the folks that do timing and scoring have a tough job already and apologize profusely for suggesting that we make their lives more difficult. Sorry guys! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":">

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub25.ezboard.com/bcomsportscarc ... ub>Snow</A> at: 5/27/03 4:32:40 pm

COMtech · Post by **COMtech** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:59 pm

The primary reason the tire size rules are as they are is to make more cars competitive based on what is available. There were a few cars out there that did not have DOT track tires available in the size that their car came with, where by allowing a slight variation while keeping the wheel size the same (the wheel offset rules are that way too for similar reasons). 
 
Kevin

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