Real street tires for SS classes?

Dan Baldwin · Post by **Dan Baldwin** » Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:57 pm

Seems to me this would be a great rule, no DOT race rubber, only real street tires (min UTQG treadwear of maybe 100). Really wouldn't affect me too much in SPB, it just seems to me having to have two sets of wheels and tires, and having to change them must be a real deterrent to people who want to compete with a minimum of hassle and expense. 
 
Just a thought. 
 
'71 240Z 3.1 
7 SPB 
 
(no, I'm not planning on retiring the Z and running the SX full-time)

FrankC · Post by **FrankC** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:41 pm

I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. Especially since we do a lot of "away" tracks. It would be great to "arrive and drive". I'd make the Tire Rack "Max Performance" category be the stickiest tires you could have in SS. 
 
Frank Cullen

Crusin · Post by **Crusin** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:21 pm

Some of the new street tires are unbelieveable. My wife is running the new Falken Azenis on her Neon for autocross. They handle at 85 to 90% of a Kumho. The wear rating is 200 but the front tires are well worn and my estimate is max life of around 6K miles. Price is right at $70 for a 205/50/15. 
 
Lee 
Miata ST4 286 
 
sure you don't want to sell the Z Dan?

Blafromboise146 · Post by **Blafromboise146** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:56 am

I suggested that SS run only non DOT race tires at lase years WGI compition meeting as a way to get more new members and have more people time trial. People without race tires know that they are giving up 2-3 seconds at WGI and 1.5 seconds at NHIS. All the front runners in SS have race tires. Yokahama AVS Intermediate size 205/55/14 cost around $62- each. 
Pirelli P700 summers are a better rain tire and cost around $58- each. Both tires have a 150 wear rating and 
should last a season. With the rising cost of attending events a change in the tire rule would help ensure club viability in lean times.

AudHaus · Post by **AudHaus** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:14 pm

I don't think it would encourage that many more people to time trial. Anyone who really enjoys this is already thinking about what they can do to improve their car's handling after only a few events. The immediate first answer is "better tires." A set of cheap wheels and competition tires is the cheapest and best first upgrade you can do. 
 
Also, the best street tires, which you would need to be competitive, are more expensive than track tires. Some of the cheaper tires mentioned above are very good tires, but are still going to give up a little to the latest best tires. 
 
Although it is a pain to lug tires to the track, and especially to be changing back and forth between competition and street tires when it rains and clears and rains some more, I do it because it is more fun driving on the competition tires when it is dry, and more fun (and safer) driving on street tires when it rains. 
 
If you're not time trialing because of tires, then I don't think you like this sport that much. We all fantasize we'll win our first event, but it doesn't work that way, even when you do have competition tires. I do it for fun. 
 
I would not be opposed to this rule, but I would need better street tires! I think the rule might just make more people move into ST. 
 
Jack Rich

Dan Baldwin · Post by **Dan Baldwin** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:48 pm

That's sorta what I meant, that those who want to modify and tinker would have race tires and run in ST, while those who keep their cars stock would remain in SS. Maybe I should butt out since I'm not competing in SS, though I would like to give my Z28 a go in SSGT one o' these days! 
 
Seems to me tires are THE most expensive part of competing, and THE most hassle. Just seems like the SS class should offer a way for folks to be competitive without the cost and hassle. 
 
BTW, Hoosiers are $169/ea for me, while Bridgestone S03s were only $129/ea, and will have a much longer useful life, and make good wet OR dry track tires. I did well at Mosport on those street tires, and did well in SSB at NHIS on Bridgestone RE730s, so cars CAN be reasonably quick on street rubber. Also, the way my stock 240SX handles (roll, pitch, all over the place), I think more grip is the last thing it needs. Cars with modified suspensions should be better able to handle the grip of race rubber. 
 
Oops, I said I would butt out! Anyway, some food for thought for SS competitors, if you guys want to pursue it. 
 
Dan Baldwin 
#7 SPB 240Z 3.1 
#7 SSB 240SX

comsccAdmin · Post by **comsccAdmin** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:16 pm

We've actually discussed this topic a couple of times 
over the last couple of years at the annual rules 
meetings. 
 
I'm all for it. I have run street tires for all 6 
years I have been with the club. 
 
In any case, many of the trophy-winning SS drivers 
seem to be against it. Unless there is a groundswell 
of support from members we haven't heard from, there 
is no reason to expect change. 
 
I wonder if we could do on-line polls for questions 
like this? Hmmm... 
 
-Herb 

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub25.ezboard.com/ucomsccadmin.s ... ccAdmin</A> at: 6/23/02 10:17:56 pm

danm · Post by **danm** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 12:29 am

As one of the SS trohpy winners, I guess I have to be against this. :-) 
 
My main concern is about safety on a variety of points. When people use street tires, many don't know how to set pressures properly for safe handling. With the DOT racing tires, there is some manufacturer guidance on this subject. I've seen people destroy street tires at an event due to over-driving, ripping the tread right down to the cord. It can't be safe driving on these back home again. The heat cycling of the tires in this demanding environment causes a change in the compound chemistry, making the tires quite unsafe on wet street conditions. Inexpensive street tires are simply not suitable for for track use due to their construction. 
 
I have run street tires in the past, and I have to comment that DOT racing tires are less expensive, safer, and more fun. I don't want to start another discussion, but why don't we also restrict the use of better brake pads or brake fluid? Those aren't stock either. 
 
If we ever have a rule that precludes DOT racing tires from SS, I would reclassify for the safety and fun of continued use of these tires.

blafromboise · Post by **blafromboise** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:55 am

I would not want to see a rule change that would further reduce the number of cars in SSB,SSC. It would be nice to see some of the folks that keep dominating some of the SS classes to think about reclassification. Would'nt it be nice to have work to be competative. If you are running DOT race tires and beating cars running street tires, remember that you are buying speed and may not be a better driver, only have a bigger budget. 
 
How about a award for the highest points finnisher running street tires.

blafromboise · Post by **blafromboise** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:26 am

When read my last post seems harsh. Sorry that was not the intent. I think it would grow class attendance in the long run if SS were to run street tires only. I would like to see new members spend 300-500 on event fees to become better drivers rather that sit out a few events so that they can buy race tires. 
Improper air pressure has the same results on all tires race or street. Tech inspectors, Instructors and experienced drivers should be helping to insure that tires are properly inflated. 
 
It is true that some street tires could be dangerous when pushed too hard. A driver useing a $149 set of 60,000 rated tires should be warned at tech. The current rule does not eleminate this hazzard. Creating a Street tire only class will not create a new hazzard. Most incidents involve drivers useing equipment or skills they have not mastered, why then throw race tires into the mix.

Crusin · Post by **Crusin** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:32 pm

The tire war has raged in autocross events where DOT tires are allowed in stock classes. As a result, the SCCA setup a STS class, which is a street tire only class. It has become the most popular class nationwide. As it turns out, some of the more popular performance tires are also the least expensive like the Falken Azenis at well under $100 per tire in popular sizes.

COMtech · Post by **COMtech** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:27 pm

I personally am strongly opposed to this. When the cars are being pushed to the limit, street tires will chunk, plain and simple. Replacing a set of street tires every day gets expensive in a hurry. I personally ran Yoko AVS Intermediates when I first started out, one of the highest performance street tires on the market, and granted, it was at the old abrasive Mt. Tremblant, but during my second time trial, I chunked the front tires during the timed run in an SSA Ford Probe GT. I had a similar experience at NHIS this April when I ran my SSA Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS for a total of 15 laps over 3 sessions. The Toyo Proxes tires run in World Challenge chunk in 2 laps if they're not shaved. This also opens the door of the legality of shaving tires, and as earlier stated in this topic, in the more powerful SS Classes, the DOT track tires are less expensive than their street tire counterparts. It is my belief that most of the fast drivers in the SS classes would run into this problem if they were required to run street tires, thus making it less expensive to run track tires. 
 
Kevin

Mark Swinehart · Post by **Mark Swinehart** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:31 pm

One of the benefits of Showroom Stock (SS) is that a prospective member can participate with their daily driver. The only thing that they have to purchase is a helmet. With that small expense, and the related registration fee, they will receive excellent instruction and loads of safe, fun track time. After running on street tires for a period of time they have three options while staying in SS: 1) continue on their street tires; 2) purchase higher performance street tires; or 3) purchase competition tires. This progression from street tires to R-compounds is the path that I have followed. 
 
I have run in SS for the last three years and have some opinions on any revision to the current tire rule. 
 
The current tire rule allows a competitor to spend more than one year in a class, have fun, and lower their lap times each year by upgrading their tires. A typical progression would be in year one - street tires, in year two " high performance street tires, and in year three " competition tires. The current rule allows for the opportunity to progress and learn with minimal cost while still keeping the car street legal. The elimination of R-compound tires would hinder the amount of the progression within the class and in my opinion it would be boring to remain on street tires. 
 
The other option of moving up a class does not appeal to me or some of the other drivers in SS because while some COM Street Stock cars may be street legal, they are not typically used as daily drivers. Most SS cars are not dedicated track cars. 
 
Another issue with any proposed rule change is that if a driver does choose to move from SS to Street Stock their only experience would be on street tires. The use of R-compound tires in SS serves as a great transition from Showroom to Street Stock classes. 
 
People need to understand "Entrants are not guaranteed the competitiveness of any vehicle in any class." I feel that many who want change the current tire rule are doing it for shortsighted reasons. To improve the competitiveness of SS, not allowing R-compounds may help for the very short term. For the long-term future of SS allowing progression within the class makes the class more appealing. Drivers can spend more time there (as much as three or more years) and still enjoy the rewards of lower and lower lap times. 
 
I have progressed from street to R-compound tires and have been challenged to learn the unique handling characteristics and associated performance of competition tires. Every time I go to the track I am learning something new about my SE-R or myself. The tire selection rules within SS have contributed to my desire and ability to progress and learn within the same car classification. 
 
If competition tires were excluded from SS I would have two options. I could either continue in SS on street tires or move to Street Stock. Neither option appeals to me, because as I stated above street tires would be boring and moving up a class is a commitment that I am not prepared to make. 
 
Lets not change the tire rule within the SS classification.

Tony Russo · Post by **Tony Russo** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:50 pm

IMHO 
 
I don't understand the advantage to running your street tires on the track. Running your street tires at an auto-x is fine since they are only abused for about 5 minutes total. When you bring them to the track you are going to wind up with a couple of issues. 
 
1) you can potentially have newbies showing up with street tires that have been previously repaired, run flat, or are just generally old. 
 
2) If some one shows up with new rubber, the treadblocks will chunk, ruining their $65 tires. 
 
3) I live in Boston so I'll make this a worst case; I leave for the Glen on my street rubber. Get to the Glen and some time in the weekend, I flat spot a tire, cut a tire, or break a wheel. Now I can't get home. (If you have a spare, thats a long ride on a donut). 
 
4) Finally, your street tires will become rocks from heat cycling them. Assuming you are running the car hard, the street tires will harden up. It may take 2 full events to happen, but they will fall off. After a PCA driver's school on my SP8000's I wound up throwing them out. While they were well worn, they were hard as rocks after the weekend. 
 
For the amount of $ outlay for a set of kumho's and wheels, you get a lot more than a set of street rubber. Kumho's lasted me more than 14 track days + 4 autox's. There is no way i'll believe a street tire would come close to that and maintain similar performance levels.

Dan Baldwin · Post by **Dan Baldwin** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:52 am

1) Changing the rule to mandate street tires does NOTHING to the issue of newbies showing up on unsuitable tires. They bring them and run on them now. There are rules in place to prevent running on unsuitable tires, which should be enforced. I don't see what your concern is here. 
 
2) There are good street tires that won't chunk when properly cared for. I've run street tires at several track days without chunking on the Z, though I have chunked a set on the 240SX after ~7 track days, though not to the point that they're useless. 
 
3) If you can bring four race tires, surely you could bring a couple of spares instead, eh? Mandating street tires doesn't reduce your capacity to bring as many tires as you want. 
 
4) I had a set of Bridgestone RE71s on the Z that I drove hard at 10+ track days before they went off. Now I'm on a set of Bridgestone S03s that I've put maybe 5 track days on, and was one of the fastest at NHIS in the wet last month on them. Heck, I won my class on them at Mosport. I had done about 5 or so track days on a set of Bridgestone RE730s on my 240SX when I bettered the SSB track record on them at NHIS in April of this year (with no brakes, BTW). 
 
I must admit I'm shocked that you guys don't like the idea. If I were solely competing in SS, I'd LOVE to not have to worry with race tires. I've driven my cars on street and race tires and had tons of fun on both, just slightly faster on the race tires. I haven't had any major durability issues, either. Heck, I'd MUCH sooner put springs/shocks/sway bars on the 240SX than race tires, it rolls and pitches all over the place already. Most showroom stock cars aren't really up to race rubber if you ask me. This rule seemed like a natural, why you guys want to keep on juggling wheels and tires is beyond me. There are good enough street tires that the performance difference isn't all that great, particularly on a stock car. 
 
Dan Baldwin

COM Sports Car Club

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