Classification, where do COM cars stack up (vs NASA, others)

[WillM]

I'm curious how the COM classes stack up against other clubs. I know at least a handful of COM members have run with clubs like NASA, and am wondering if anyone has some experience to share.

In the event that a COM event is back-to-back with a NASA event at an "away" track next year, I just may attend.

I downloaded their classification form and classed my car. Have to say that the points-based systems seems to make a lot of sense, especially for the cars that fall between "Stock" and "tube chassis".

If anyone is interested, and I hope at least a few are, complete the form and let us know where your car would fall!

My 1.8 Miata started out in TTE, and finishes right on the boarder of TTE and TTD.

The form is here: NASA Classification Form
The rules and base classes are listed here: NASA Time Trial Rules & Base Classes

For what it is worth, I ignored the weight and dyno classification, and used the manual calculation method.

[Grippy]

it seems like that would level the playing field for cars thet are not fully prepared to the extent of COM class rules.

I never understood why we NEED to have our own rules rather than use someone else's, like SCCA or NASA. Let them do all the work updating etc.

[cfossum]

I think a points system would be more difficult to police than our current one, because the points system would not support the idea of "class experts" who theoretically know a lot about what is allowed in a particular class.

It wasn't NASA, but I ran for years with a club that used a combination of methods for classing. They started out with SCCA stock autocross classifications and then weighted each vehicle with points that were based on modifications. The points would actually move you up classes. I hated it. The disparity of "similarly classed" vehicles is exaggerated at certain tracks.

Specifically, I once showed up with my RX7 with a roll cage, and they assumed it was a full-on race car complete with a race motor. They somehow just knew that the motor was ported, so I was put in the same class as a viper. I didn't win anything at a track where high hp would have helped most.
-Carl

[Tsurara]

So you guys won't mind when I show up with my SCCA T2 Evo and want to run ST1 ?

[chaos4NH]

Heck, Charles, ST1 needs some speeding up. For many events this year, the top 3 in ST2 have run faster than the ST1 cars. The disappointed ones would be those Lotus Elise drivers. Are you sure you wouldn't end up in SPB with the WRX STi guys?

[grovefromnh]

We have our own rules because COM has been running for almost 50 years. Our rules work for us. These other clubs weren't in existance. 99% of our members run only COM track events. There is no need to have our rules conform with any other clubs.

[Grippy]

I don't think the 99% figure is quite accurate, there are many people that run with other clubs, SCCA, BMW etc.

The point is not to "conform" to other clubs rules. It is to give the guy who has the one mod that bumps him to the next class a chance at competeing with guys who are built to the class limits.

For instance, the new member who has a carbon hood on a stock car who now needs a cage and a fire suit just to try out the track experience.

[WillM]

Thanks for the input guys.

One of the things that I liked when I read the NASA points-based rule system, is that it addresses every modification. Once complete, the worksheet says what exactly is and is not modified on the car. I would think this would make policing more efficient for stewards. I have not run with NASA, but I would assume that if a car is subject to scrutiny, the driver is obligated to submit his classification worksheet. In my mind, this would work great for classes like ST and SP, and not at all for SS or P.

As a steward, when I am presented a car for scrutiny, it would be very helpful to have a completed form from the driver which lists the modifications (especially in ST and SP). As with all of our rules in all of the classes, there is a certain level of honesty and trust expected. COM stewards do not remove parts, open engines, or anything of the like. Nor should we. Since we are accepting what drivers tell us about the parts we can't see or verify, why not have them complete the form and present it during scrutiny? At the very least, this would help improve knowledge of the class rules among drivers, and decrease the amount of "misinterpretations" of the rulebook.

Another thing I liked about the rules, is that the points system seems to deal with individual modifications much more efficiently. No heavy penalties for an aftermarket wing, fender flares, etc.

Grove, with all due respect, exactly which other clubs do you run with? I have been to events with a variety of other clubs. There are a lot of COM members there. I bet I could list 5 instructors who run with other clubs for every one that does not. Sorry, did not mean to get off topic, but the notion that COM and its members are not a part of the racing community is not in line with reality. The COM guys I know are some of the biggest proponents of motorsports in the region. We are racers, and for the most part I believe that COM is our favorite club (by far!), but that doesn't mean that the 8-9 COM events per year is enough to satisfy the thirst.

[brucesallen]

There have been lengthy efforts at points based systems by me and others years ago in COM. They have failed for lack of support- mainly due to complexity and difficulty for stewards.
I also was one of the first to say that our simplistic 4,6,8 cyl rules for SP would never work but they have worked amazingly well over the years.

[Stynger]

As a steward, when I am presented a car for scrutiny, it would be very helpful to have a completed form from the driver which lists the modifications (especially in ST and SP). As with all of our rules in all of the classes, there is a certain level of honesty and trust expected. COM stewards do not remove parts, open engines, or anything of the like. Nor should we. Since we are accepting what drivers tell us about the parts we can't see or verify, why not have them complete the form and present it during scrutiny? At the very least, this would help improve knowledge of the class rules among drivers, and decrease the amount of "misinterpretations" of the rulebook.

Maybe a log book for the car.

Something we can download and fill out?

[boltonite]

This info can be kept online on the registration site, regardless of the classification system used and made available to stewards (have each driver present the form to tech or have an event organizer compile it) if that would help w/ tech.

I too think the current system has worked fairly well, but there are cases (the carbon fiber hood) where the rules don't seem proportional.

The next BOD meeting will be deja vu all over again.
FF

[ep510]

Hello All,

I am new to COM this year--have run with EMRA and probably would have run with NASA if my schedule allowed.

I like the NASA pts system. Having dealt with SCCA Solo classing for years ---where one modification will put you into a different category ( as can happen with COM and EMRA) the NASA system is more appealing.

When a newbie ( myself or another buddy who did not go to a COM event due to a small modification bumping him to SP ---and thus needing Roll bar and firesuit --he decided not to participate)
--When a newbie sees the rules they can be daunting to him/her. IMO many people do not bother to read rules when they start to prepare their vehicle ----the pts system helps. If is a big bump ---maybe they can back out a mod to keep in a certain class --that is not as important to them as "the big mod" that bumped them to a different class/Category.

My .02 worth

PS --I totally agree with the safety gear --please do not think I feel these are not good mods. --The nice thing is in a pts system you can get back some performance enhancement but adding a roll bar/cage etc.

[JackFFR1846]

COM P/C
I can't figure out the class lineage. Looks like I'm TTF +60 points (3 classes) but I don't know what the classes are to jump through. And it's pretty funny to me that Corvairs and DeTomasos are listed but absolutely no Hondas at all. I guess they don't like us ricers.

jack

[WillM]

Jack,

Thanks for doing the math! Honda cars are listed on page 13 of the classification manual (2nd file above):

Code: Select all

Honda  Accord 2.0L                     TTG** 
Honda  Accord 2.2L                     TTG* 
Honda  Accord 2.3L                     TTG* 
Honda  Accord 2.4L ('03-'07)           TTF 
Honda  Accord 2.7 V6 ('95-'97)         TTF 
Honda  Accord 3.0 V6 ('03-'07)         TTE 
Honda  Accord 3.0 V6 ('98-'02)         TTF* 
Honda  Civic 1.6L SOHC ('88-'91)       TTF 
Honda  Civic Base ('88-'91)            TTG 
Honda  Civic Coupe 1.8L ('06-'07)      TTF* 
Honda  Civic CX ('92-'95)              TTG 
Honda  Civic del Sol S (<107hp)        TTG** 
Honda  Civic del Sol Si (<128hp)       TTF* 
Honda  Civic del Sol VTEC (DOHC 1.6L)  TTE 
Honda  Civic DX 1.5L 16v ('88-'91)     TTG** 
Honda  Civic EX 1.6L ('96-'00)         TTF 
Honda  Civic EX 1.7L ('01-'05)         TTF 
Honda  Civic Non-VTEC (92hp)           TTF 
Honda  Civic Si 1.6L ('92-'95)         TTF 
Honda  Civic Si 1.6L ('96-'99)         TTF** 
Honda  Civic Si 2.0L ('01-'05)         TTF* 
Honda  Civic Si 2.0L ('06-'07)         TTE 
Honda  Civic VX                        TTG** 
Honda  CRX DX 1.5L 16v ('88-'91)       TTG** 
Honda  CRX DX 12v ('85-'87)            TTG** 
Honda  CRX HF                          TTG 
Honda  CRX Si 1.5L ('85-'87)           TTF** 
Honda  CRX Si ('88-'91)                TTF* 
Honda  CRX 1.6L DOHC VTEC              TTE 
Honda  Prelude Si ('92-'96)            TTF* 
Honda  Prelude Si (pre-'92)            TTF 
Honda  Prelude VTEC ('93-'01)          TTF** 
Honda  S2000 (2.0L)('00-'03)           TTD* 
Honda  S2000 (2.2L)('04-'07)           TTD* 

[John F]

That's funny! My wife's 03 Accord is TTE. It was a real sled when I drove it on my first outing. My Factory Five Cobra is TTS (or TTU, I didn't see where the transition was but it's one of the two)