New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

[n1gzd]

if all cars moved down one class does this mean that my T40 car moved down to T30?
Rebecca

[Chrispy]

if all cars moved down one class does this mean that my T40 car moved down to T30?
Rebecca

Correct.

[Bobc]

We both decided a few years ago that COM was alot of fun with alot of great people and it was the place we wanted to run. I just hope it keeps being that way, I have seen major rules changes in other motor sports "fun to run groups" change the whole atmosphere and eventually it the killed series...This is one of the reasons why we started running at COM events.

Here's a question for you - how would you feel about running against a car like mine in T100? Race Prepped, ~2600lb (Wet, with Driver) E30 M3 on Hoosiers? I'm trying to figure out if competition between such different cars would be a good, or a not-so-good change... My guess is we don't really know until we try it...

I don't know how I feel about that either to me that is more like apples and oranges, we have dead stock cars that weight about 3350 lbs race ready a HUGE difference.

What I do know is that my cost will be going up to keep up with a race prepped car at every event (because you know as well as I if the car has room left to modify it in the rules package then a good racer will have to bring it to the limit of the rules) and I have to justify that expense knowing that we will never win a championship because we won't spent the money to take my truck to Canada ( canadian heavy truck rules apply to "not for hire "heavy trucks)
and Summit is Iffy because we have to take more time off from work We now use COM events as vacations.
combine that with us not wanting to take off our Hoosiers because they are TOO much fun.

So Brendan I guess i could not answer your question so thought I would show you were we stand. So I guess now I have to ask you what would you do? keeping in mind that she has just as much or more competitive drive as I do?

Bob

[WillM]

I don't know how I feel about that either to me that is more like apples and oranges, we have dead stock cars that weight about 3350 lbs race ready a HUGE difference.

What I do know is that my cost will be going up to keep up with a race prepped car at every event (because you know as well as I if the car has room left to modify it in the rules package then a good racer will have to bring it to the limit of the rules) and I have to justify that expense knowing that we will never win a championship because we won't spent the money to take my truck to Canada ( canadian heavy truck rules apply to "not for hire "heavy trucks)
and Summit is Iffy because we have to take more time off from work We now use COM events as vacations.
combine that with us not wanting to take off our Hoosiers because they are TOO much fun.

Bob, thanks for posting this.

One of the things I keep hearing in meetings, which I totally disagree with, is that the new rules will make competing with COM cheaper.

Thanks for being involved in this important conversation. I hope more and more members voice their opinions, and that those members that have spoken continue to!

The BoD and the rules team are actively discussing just about every aspect of these rule changes, and the rules themselves have evolved a good amount since the first draft. Though nothing is set in stone, the window is closing; decisions are going to be made within the coming weeks. Please, please, PLEASE....! Let us know if you have any questions, reservations, comments, likes, dislikes, etc.

[Bobc]

glad I could help Will,

I don't see how it could be Cheaper our cars will have about 5 points to play with all of the mods I have in mind to go faster will be several thousand dollars per car to max out the points in the class. Where right now we are DEAD stock with R6's Yes I could bolt on street tires but where is the fun in that once you have run a car on Hoosier's who want' to go back??? I know Laura doesn't and I don't either. The cars are fun just the way they are.....
We have both tried lesser tires the R1's and the Kuhmo 555 and there is no compairison in the way the car drives. For that matter which is safer when driving like we do a "street tire" or an R6.....
Also that doesn't include the bigger radiators, brake ducts and a few other "free" (in the points) items we will be installing to help out with the car's longevity that we cannot use now in SSU.
Bob

[n1gzd]

At least for former ST4 cars this could be cheaper.
These cars will be distributed between at least three new classes, T30, T40, T50.
In the old rules, to be competitive you would have had to spend money on all of the modifications that are legal in ST4.
Now you can spend only enough to be in T30, or you can spend some more on points to put you in T40 or you can spend even more and push your car into T50.

I am sure that I am simplifying things a little but for some cars there are now more choices for which class you will be in.

Rebecca

[Bobc]

At least for former ST4 cars this could be cheaper.
These cars will be distributed between at least three new classes, T30, T40, T50.
In the old rules, to be competitive you would have had to spend money on all of the modifications that are legal in ST4.
Now you can spend only enough to be in T30, or you can spend some more on points to put you in T40 or you can spend even more and push your car into T50.

I am sure that I am simplifying things a little but for some cars there are now more choices for which class you will be in.

Rebecca

Hi Rebecca
that is true but your car falls at say 31 or 32 points or 41 -42 points or for that matter 38 or 48 points then you would really need to spend the money on mods to be at 39 or 49 to truely be as fast as you can be in that class bracket.....otherwise you are leaving available performance on the table never a good thing if you want to be competitive.

[kfoote]

Just for the record, I don't think I've seen a car outside of SS that runs with COM that was truly prepped to the limit of the class rules, even when scaled to the technology of the day. Will's Miata in SPC is probably the closest, with honorable mention to the late 90's SPA battle between Grove Marcy's Camaro and Frank Perron's 'Cuda. Yes, it will be more expensive for the SS cars in the new Touring format, but for someone building a car from scratch, it will be less expensive to get close to the limits of the rules than it would be in any of the ST, SP, or P classes that are eligible for Touring. The $10,000 4-way adjustable remote reservoir shocks look a lot less attractive when they cost 4 points over a revalved non-adjustable shock for $800/set. Though I don't know of anyone in COM that is currently running a 4-way adjustable shock in the COM SP classes, they are completely legal. The new format allows you to spend those 4 points on something that will be of greater benefit in lap time and is less expensive.

[WillM]

Just for the record, I don't think I've seen a car outside of SS that runs with COM that was truly prepped to the limit of the class rules, even when scaled to the technology of the day. Will's Miata in SPC is probably the closest, with honorable mention to the late 90's SPA battle between Grove Marcy's Camaro and Frank Perron's 'Cuda. Yes, it will be more expensive for the SS cars in the new Touring format, but for someone building a car from scratch, it will be less expensive to get close to the limits of the rules than it would be in any of the ST, SP, or P classes that are eligible for Touring. The $10,000 4-way adjustable remote reservoir shocks look a lot less attractive when they cost 4 points over a revalved non-adjustable shock for $800/set. Though I don't know of anyone in COM that is currently running a 4-way adjustable shock in the COM SP classes, they are completely legal. The new format allows you to spend those 4 points on something that will be of greater benefit in lap time and is less expensive.

I think that crown belongs to Fast Freddy (don't they all?!?!) Someone could certainly fit many more cubic dollars in my SPC rig! S2000 engine for starters! Heck, a 'real' set of cams and actually high-compression pistons would be a start, as would double, triple, or 4-way Motons (compared to the singles I have now). Well...I can dream. I can also accept contributions.

That said, a completely non-adjustable set of Penske coilovers could certainly cost as much if not more than a set of 4-ways, and be just as effective if done correctly, which is where most of the $10k cost would be. Which would be cheaper? A proper set of 4-way adjustables or a set of non-adjustable shocks that are custom valved for each track? Again...it is impossible to try and put a price tag or price cap on classes, but I do see where you are coming from and think it is reasonable to assume that there are circumstances where things could actually be 'cheaper' for some. I remember the stories you told me way-back-when about running the Miata in SCCA SSB races where other guys had $10k in shocks...per corner! Yikes!

[Foosh442]

...not all that unlike now, a race spec Corvette ends up in Super A, and a race spec Miata ends up in Super C.

That reminds me, how did Michael Fuchswanz end up in T100? I had assumed he was going to move from PA into Super B. Not complaining, mind you.

Hi Doug! Like Chrispy said, our Silver '02 C5Z is almost bone stock so that is the T100 car. My race car would be in Super B under the new rules, although I would probably run the T100 car in Super B as well to keep all of the points in one place.

[WillM]

At least for former ST4 cars this could be cheaper.
These cars will be distributed between at least three new classes, T30, T40, T50.
In the old rules, to be competitive you would have had to spend money on all of the modifications that are legal in ST4.
Now you can spend only enough to be in T30, or you can spend some more on points to put you in T40 or you can spend even more and push your car into T50.

I am sure that I am simplifying things a little but for some cars there are now more choices for which class you will be in.

Rebecca

On the other hand Rebecca, you could configure your current Miata to run in SSC, ST4, SPC, or PC. If you really wanted to, you could legally run your Miata in sixteen of the current COM classes: SSC, SSB, SSA, SSGT, SSU, ST4, ST3, ST2, ST1, STGT, SPC, SPB, SPA, PC, PB, PA, though it is unlikely to be competitive in many of them, and for it to be competitive in several of those classes, you'll be spending a lot of money. But isn't that the same situation you'd find yourself in with the proposed touring classes?

I think the point that Bob has made is that the new Touring class will pit him against cars which could be modified beyond the capability of his current SS car, and in order to be competitive, he may have to 'spend the money'. I think this is an accurate and fair observation. Likewise, there could be someone that is currently running in Bob's class that likes the Touring rule set because it will allow them to 'spend the money' and perhaps bring their car up to the capability of Bob's. Either way, those that want to compete are going to 'spend the money'.

There will be a 'chase to the top' in all of the other classes too.

[paultg]

I think the point that Bob has made is that the new Touring class will pit him against cars which could be modified beyond the capability of his current SS car, and in order to be competitive, he may have to 'spend the money'. I think this is an accurate and fair observation. Likewise, there could be someone that is currently running in Bob's class that likes the Touring rule set because it will allow them to 'spend the money' and perhaps bring their car up to the capability of Bob's. Either way, those that want to compete are going to 'spend the money'.

There will be a 'chase to the top' in all of the other classes too.

Will I do also agree with this; and am in that situation, but for my touring class car I think it's still very similar or a bit less costly for me with the new rules set vs the ST4 requirements, I haven't seen the latest version yet.

I was struggling with this a bit now that I think I can be more competitive in my T40 with ST4 broken up, since I think it is a mid range points car. I might be able to do SM6s and stay in class, probably need to do so to compete.

But, I can't make every event, and others in the class will, so that sort of makes it a moot point for me so my plans is safety upgrades and more seat time. I have tons of fun closing the gap in terms of lap times to the top players.


And the BBQ food is awesome.

[Chrispy]

Hmm, we could always do $$$ based classing

For Touring I don't think it is necessary to make it to the top of the points per class to be competitive. Aside from a few of the SS folks most people still have mods they are "allowed" to make, just don't want to spend the $$$ to make them. We have street tire people running in SS against people with R6's, or perhaps the same street tire individual gets bumped to ST because they have a non OEM radiator or to SP because they have a street tire turbo car with a tune. For someone to max out their SP class it could be $100,000!+

Yes, you can still spend $$$ to be at the top of the class, but I think the take away is that the step between classes is smaller, and just because you are at 52 points doesn't mean that you can't be competitive with the person that is at 59 points just by being a better driver. Yes, the ultra competitive folk will probably be enticed to spend money to reach the top of their class, but perhaps they were looking for an excuse to buy that next mod anyway? Overall the $$$ spent to jump from T30 to T40 will be less than the leap it was to go from SS to ST and the options on how to get there are limitless vs fixed.

So overall I see it as less $$$ spent, but that's the long term outlook. I'll probably point my car out to 101 points and run in T100 who knows. Another option that hasn't really been discussed is that some folk may actually opt to go down a class by taking parts off the car and selling them. If you're at 41 points and on a strict budget then it is an alternative.

[WillM]

Another option that hasn't really been discussed is that some folk may actually opt to go down a class by taking parts off the car and selling them. If you're at 41 points and on a strict budget then it is an alternative.

I know of at least two members that were planning on taking off parts and running in a lower class, one of them actually took a bunch of parts off for the last NH event. That was when the rules first came out. I think the reality didn't match the brilliance of the idea; both have since changed their minds.

$ince the topic has drifted to money, and we're now looking at a rule $et (Touring) where current $$ cars would compete against $$, $T, and $P cars, then I believe $omeone need$ to take a clo$er look at the value of rain tire$.

I think Hoosier wets should move a car up one complete class, minimum, and regardless of tire width or other factors. Ten freakin' points. Seems only fair if we are building a rule set where stock daily drivers are running against guys with track-prepared cars that arrive on trailers or at least towing tire trailers behind them. Talk about having to spend money to be competitive! Not only do you need to buy the tires, but you need to buy a trailer and maybe a tow vehicle too! How many SS or even ST cars are driven to/from events with not means of carrying a set of tires, let alone a set of rain tires.

I will now go duck under my desk as I can already hear the ST4 Miata posse sharpening their pitchforks and lighting their torches. But...! They should be thankful if Hoosier wets are deemed to be worth 10-15 points. Think of all of the money they'll save!!

[Chrispy]

It actually don't disagree with you on the Hoosier wets, in the right conditions they can definitely buy you the win over the has nots wets. Although the last NH event probably wasn't a good example since we saw people win on just about any tire imaginable, the Summit Point event was a pretty good example. Only problem I see with assigning 10 points to a Hoosier wet is now you running in a higher class just for owning something, you could go an entire season without a wet TT.