New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

[Chrispy]

That reminds me, how did Michael Fuchswanz end up in T100? I had assumed he was going to move from PA into Super B. Not complaining, mind you.

Depends what car he is driving, I believe they have 3 Corvettes total? One of them is a fairly stock Z06 model (the back up car), the black car is pretty tricked out and is definitely Super material.

[WillM]

An SS car isn't going to run in super, nor would they be eligible.

That's not entirely true. *Most* SS cars won't run in super, but some will or perhaps MUST. The changes that are currently allowed in SS (tires some suspension mods) have the potential to bump some SS cars into Super. At least that is what I see in the latest version of the rules.

You'd have to ask Bob Cairns and Laura Flemming, and likely other SSU members for details on the tires and suspension they run.

[brucesallen]

Jimmy,
Weight doesn't matter?? Weight is your enemy and the PRIMARY dictate of lap time. Power to weight ratio is next.

[Jimmy Pet]

Jimmy,
Weight doesn't matter?? Weight is your enemy and the PRIMARY dictate of lap time. Power to weight ratio is next.

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
What I meant is that I dont ever want myself or anyone else to worry about taking weight out of my car,,, and having it possibly move me a class.
Obviously its important.
I just dont ever want to have to worry about "well if I take this part and make it lighter will it move me into the bottom part of the next faster class",,, or any changes for that matter.

[Chrispy]

That's not entirely true. *Most* SS cars won't run in super, but some will or perhaps MUST. The changes that are currently allowed in SS (tires some suspension mods) have the potential to bump some SS cars into Super. At least that is what I see in the latest version of the rules.

You'd have to ask Bob Cairns and Laura Flemming, and likely other SSU members for details on the tires and suspension they run.

I meant not eligible from a bone stock safety perspective. If an SS car adds the appropriate roll-over protection and 5-point harnesses (allowed under SS rules) then they would be legal in Super as well. Not sure they would want to run there, but that would be their choice just as they have the option to run in SPA now.

With the new class shift you can now have up to 109 points and remain in touring so I would think that eases the issue of forcing vehicles to Super. The mods on Bob & Laura's cars are minimal so they fit pretty easily (18.7 points to cap). It would be interesting to hear from people that would like to run in Touring but don't currently fit, that would be the big yellow flag.

The updated spreadsheet is almost ready, just adding the new notes requested regarding safety equipment.

[wizzman]

What I meant is that I dont ever want myself or anyone else to worry about taking weight out of my car,,, and having it possibly move me a class.
Obviously its important.
I just dont ever want to have to worry about "well if I take this part and make it lighter will it move me into the bottom part of the next faster class",,, or any changes for that matter.

Dropping weight is no different than adding horsepower except that less weight makes you faster accelerating as well as breaking and cornering. If you don't like that you fall right on the threshold of a higher class in the new system and it prevents you from removing a few pounds that is one thing. Saying removing weight shouldn't matter is another.

Your statement above seems to support the proposed classing system over the current one. In the current system you move up a class for removing various parts of a car that ultimately do not make you go any faster (ie interior carpet, panels etc). In the proposed system it doesn't matter what specific parts you remove from the car but rather the total weight removed from the car. Seems much more fair and logical to me.

[WillM]

Your statement above seems to support the proposed classing system over the current one. In the current system you move up a class for removing various parts of a car that ultimately do not make you go any faster (ie interior carpet, panels etc). In the proposed system it doesn't matter what specific parts you remove from the car but rather the total weight removed from the car. Seems much more fair and logical to me.

Dave, you would be 100% correct, EXCEPT that Jimmy is ONLY talking about the proposed Super classes (versus the current Prepared classes).

[Jimmy Pet]

Your statement above seems to support the proposed classing system over the current one. In the current system you move up a class for removing various parts of a car that ultimately do not make you go any faster (ie interior carpet, panels etc). In the proposed system it doesn't matter what specific parts you remove from the car but rather the total weight removed from the car. Seems much more fair and logical to me.

Dave, you would be 100% correct, EXCEPT that Jimmy is ONLY talking about the proposed Super classes (versus the current Prepared classes).

Yep, context is everything...
All I'm campaigning for is NOT changing Prepared. Honestly do not care if it ends up using trigonometry,,, and a dyno,,, and 3 redundant sets of scales to figure out the other classes.

[breakaway500]

"All I'm campaigning for is NOT changing Prepared. Honestly do not care if it ends up using trigonometry,,, and a dyno,,, and 3 redundant sets of scales to figure out the other classes."

Seconded!

Why not? Keep the four "old" classes of Prepared. All you have to do is leave them alone..it's not like they would have to be..."factored in"...
.......just leave them as they currently exist: Simple.

[Bobc]

An SS car isn't going to run in super, nor would they be eligible.

That's not entirely true. *Most* SS cars won't run in super, but some will or perhaps MUST. The changes that are currently allowed in SS (tires some suspension mods) have the potential to bump some SS cars into Super. At least that is what I see in the latest version of the rules.

You'd have to ask Bob Cairns and Laura Flemming, and likely other SSU members for details on the tires and suspension they run.

Hi Will,
I was staying out of this for the most part but, after seeing this I thought I would post, our cars as they sit would be 95.2 points that would round down to 95
car starts at 92.2 - 4 for being pig heavy +7 for the Hoosier r6's they have no suspension mods and stock replacement type non adj shocks, they have,aftermarket brake pads,seats, seats belts, 4 point bars, k/n filters and slp catbacks all else is dead stock with my chassis setup using stock adjustments....

Chris where did the 109 number come from the sheet I have seen is 100 point max?????

This would let me or make me do even more to the cars for next year....
Personally I would be just as happy leaving the cars alone rather than spending more $ and time on them, and that will happen because if the rules allow it someone else will, so we will have to make the changes just incase.

The current rules SSU were the reason we bought 2 Z06's in the first place.. The coupe was not that competitive and the Z16 was too nice and she got too fast to keep running it. We wanted to have 2 fairly nice street cars with the full mostly stock interiors, radio, ac included and still be able to go fast, neither of us want gutted race only cars so SSU seamed a perfect fit. Yes I would like to run a bigger radiator and brake ducts but the SSU rules won't allow them and we have done just fine with out them.

We both decided a few years ago that COM was alot of fun with alot of great people and it was the place we wanted to run. I just hope it keeps being that way, I have seen major rules changes in other motor sports "fun to run groups" change the whole atmosphere and eventually it the killed series...This is one of the reasons why we started running at COM events.

Bob

[Chrispy]

Chris where did the 109 number come from the sheet I have seen is 100 point max?????

Hi Bob,

There was a change in the latest rule book by the committee, they added an extra touring class and shifted all the classes down, also all base cars are 1 less point. So T90 is now from 90 points to 99.9 and T100 from 100 to 109.9, perhaps a little more logical and easier to remember. As of right now your vehicles would be in T90 (former T100) and highly competitive, or at your option you can move up to T100.

They have the newly revised spreadsheet so as soon as it gets the green light the revised version should go up on the website.

-Chris

[SEISAN]

After seeing B C's post I decided to chime in to. I run in the same class as Bob and Laura. SSU . I have done basically the same changes as he has done. Cat Bacs, air filter,rotors and pads, and of course R6's. No chassis adjustment and no suspension changes. Other than that the ZO6 is stock. I figure under the new system I would end up with 95.6 points. Somewhere in the middle. As far as timing with the other ZO6's we are pretty close. The only difference I see if how much brass we have on a given day. We all know Bob C pushes his to the limit and Laura is not far behind with me a close third on most TT days.

At the Glen I ran my best time there and I was estatic. Of course I finished in third place behind you know who but I did not care. I had fun and improved my time. And as Bob mentioned that is one of the main reasons he... and I agree, run with COM. It has always been fun since I ran my first event and every event I have attended. I realize there will always be competition and we have to have rules that guide us..... but lets make sure we do not loose sight of having fun and enjoying the "Need for Speed" and the "Fast Lap".

Bob Brooks

AKA Shake N Bake

[WillM]

I realize there will always be competition and we have to have rules that guide us..... but lets make sure we do not loose sight of having fun and enjoying the "Need for Speed" and the "Fast Lap".

Bob Brooks

AKA Shake N Bake

Fun times and Bob-B-Que...

[Brendan]

We both decided a few years ago that COM was alot of fun with alot of great people and it was the place we wanted to run. I just hope it keeps being that way, I have seen major rules changes in other motor sports "fun to run groups" change the whole atmosphere and eventually it the killed series...This is one of the reasons why we started running at COM events.

Here's a question for you - how would you feel about running against a car like mine in T100? Race Prepped, ~2600lb (Wet, with Driver) E30 M3 on Hoosiers? I'm trying to figure out if competition between such different cars would be a good, or a not-so-good change... My guess is we don't really know until we try it...

[eastcoastbumps]

In the discussion of the rules for 2013, everyone has a car or two that will be affected, and it would be unrealistic to assume that our views are unaffected by what will happen to our own cars under the new system. "Where we stand depends on where we sit."

So, I am going to engage in full disclosure. Perhaps if others follow suit, we will have a better informed discussion.

2 of my 3 cars would benefit strongly from the new rules.

*Touring classes based off most recent revision of rule book. Recent revision added one class above T100. All cars moved down one class and gained one point. Cars that had 100-109pts under version 1.0 are now in T100, not Super. Cars with 40-49pts are now in T40 (not 50).

1.) Red 2001 Honda S2000 - (PC under the current rules. T70 under the proposed 2013 rules depending on tires)
This is an otherwise ST1 legal car with no side windows. I wasn't going to source a set of windows for the sake of one event (car came without them). And as a scruitineer, it would be bad form to run it in ST1 knowing the car wasn't legal. If the cage had NASCAR door bars, like our black car, it would be legal for ST1.

2.) Black 2001 Honda S2000 - (SPC under the current rules T80/Super C under the proposed 2013 rules)
This car would be legal for ST1 with a catalytic converter. I choose to run in SPC due to the friendly competition with Gordon, Will, Mick, Brendan and other E30 M3's. It is by no means built to the limit of SPC. Stock brakes, stock suspension (up until the Oct event), stock motor.

3.) 1986 BMW 325e 24h of Lemons race car- (PB - T40)
Built for the 24 hour of Lemons. A true crap can. No interior, dash or rear windows. Our team runs 195 wide Falken Azenis. Not competitive in PB by any means despite being an E30 with more cylinders than Fred, Jimmy or Brendans E30. Would have plenty of competition in T40 if one of my teammates decided to run it at a COM event.

4.) 1993 Mazda RX7 - now sold (PA - T80)
Chevy Corvette LS1 V8 swap. Very much a street car. Drove it to Mt. Tremblant. Couldn't run in SPA because it had a modified sub-frame and RX7s were never offered with a V8. No chance of competing with real PA cars. But there were so few PA competitors that all I would have had to do to win a class championship was show up and lose every event.

5.) 2001 Subaru 2.5RS - now sold (SPB/PB - T70)
US STi motor swap. I ran and built the car for SPB. Its legal for SPB depending on the interpretation of the subframe rule. The swap required the use of an STi subframe to clear the exhaust on the turbo motor.

6.) 2002 Subaru WRX - now sold (SPB - T70)
Installed a big brake kit (not OEM), that put it into SPB (would be T60 with just that and the ST2 modifications). Later I installed a larger turbo from a Japanese STi. The car was in the Spirit of SPB, but built no where near the limit of SPB.