meth/water injection info

[nhsilversti]

If this proposed rule affects you, make sure you attend the November meeting to vote it down. I, for one, will not be running with COM next year if it passes.

sorry frank i dont see you listed as being on the BOD so you, like me, cant vote. we can however plead our cases

[cuda6666]

Thanks for reminding me Ted, I had a senior moment and forgot I wasn't still President.

[brucesallen]

SIX LITERS OF METHANOL IN THE CAR?!! Tell me that is not a potential hazard! I guess we are overdue for COM's first fuel rule. I have taken a crack. See the rules postings.

No methyl or ethyl alcohol (methanol or ethanol) are allowed in SCCA racing.

About ten years ago when we had an alcohol powered car at COM NHMS management went ballistic! I wonder what they would say about all the methanol tanks we have around now. They were concerned because of the invisible fire hazard and the lack of training in fire control. They were especially upset with methanol in the garages.

[breakaway500]

SCCA does not allow methanol/water injection? Interesting. I guess the big issue is concentration of the solution.In the windshield washer concentration levels,which are 20-30% methanol and 70-80% water, there does not appear to be any hazard,and manufacturers do not suggest treating it any different than plain water injection,other than saying it is an eye irritant and toxic. It is when the concentration of methanol goes above 50% that things seem to get vague. I can absolutely see the need for some guidelines on the use of methanol in a secondary injection system due to the potential abuse of the operator brewing their own solutions.Unless there is a way to test the solution being injected,it will probably have to be treated as a 100% strength product. Maybe I'll just use plain water. No one can say that is a hazard,right?

[jlwhorf]

I know that methanol is nasty stuff, a friend of mine gave him self a tan and took off his eyebrows when he opened the dry sump tank on his supermodified, with a lit cigarette in his mouth. But still, think of how many kids year around the country are sitting with a gallon of methanol between thier legs on kart tracks. I guess I am glad I pickup my Red Devil this year, because I was thinking about running the stock car on E85. I thought that SCCA only allows track fuel is because that is the only way they know how to police it.

[brucesallen]

I know that methanol is nasty stuff, a friend of mine gave him self a tan and took off his eyebrows when he opened the dry sump tank on his supermodified, with a lit cigarette in his mouth. But still, think of how many kids year around the country are sitting with a gallon of methanol between thier legs on kart tracks. I guess I am glad I pickup my Red Devil this year, because I was thinking about running the stock car on E85. I thought that SCCA only allows track fuel is because that is the only way they know how to police it.

Fuel policing is a nightmare for SCCA and constantly changing and almost impossible to test. They don't mandate track fuel. Many classes including my FE Spec Formula class can use street pump gas that includes 10% ethanol. Spec Miata and SS classes too.

[brucesallen]

FYI
SCCA General Competition Rules
http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=44
fuel is 9.3.25, page 78

[cuda6666]

OK, time out. Reciting anecdotes about how dangerous straight methanol is DOES NOT HELP. BTW, don't drink it, either.

The point is that the ST and SP classes are for people with cars that are equipped with common street performance modifications. Water/meth injection is one of these common street modifications. Instead of wringing our hands and equating windshield washer fluid with the straight meth that Indy cars use, let's concentrate on not throwing the baby out with the bath water. As has been previously mentioned, determining the concentration of methanol in a water/meth solution is not rocket surgery. That's what we should be working on if we're really concerned that someone is going to run a stronger than windshield washer mix.

[nhsilversti]

SIX LITERS OF METHANOL IN THE CAR?!! Tell me that is not a potential hazard! I guess we are overdue for COM's first fuel rule. I have taken a crack. See the rules postings.

No methyl or ethyl alcohol (methanol or ethanol) are allowed in SCCA racing.

About ten years ago when we had an alcohol powered car at COM NHMS management went ballistic! I wonder what they would say about all the methanol tanks we have around now. They were concerned because of the invisible fire hazard and the lack of training in fire control. They were especially upset with methanol in the garages.

diluted vs pure meth...6 liters of pure methanol mixed with 6 liters of distilled water does not have the "explosiveness" that 6L of pure meth would.


good point about the karting world, lots of them run methanol, pure methanol.

just thought about this.....
if i were to remove my water/meth injection and tune for race fuel, i would make more power than i currently am. the real problem with that is the cost of the fuel vs. pump fuel and injecting water/meth

[brucesallen]

My bottle of windshield washer fluid says "keep away from heat and open flame". I put some in a paper cup and lit the cup. It was dark out. I got some blue flames on the fluid.

the DOT classes a typical 36% Methanol windshield washer fluid as a Class 3 flammable liquid. Google any windshield washer brand's hazardous substance submission.

http://www.jeadauto.com/msds/splash-was ... h-msds.pdf
is typical.

in mixtures of 50% windshield washer fluid is "extremely flammable" like this one you can buy:
http://www.equivashellmsds.com/getsingl ... ?ID=192898

[nhsilversti]

Auto ignition Temperature: 878ºF for methanol

dosent say (or i missed it) what it is when diluted or if that will change ignition point

gas ignites at a lower temp...

keep away from open flame and extreme heat, same as any other "fuel"

[ctkag]

I guess the answer is to keep your methanol tank in the engine compartment - like every car currently has a windshield washer reservoir.

How about a diesel engine with urea injection? Or a 2-stroke with oil injection?

All STi's & EVO's come from the factory with a trunk-mounted waterspray tank designed to cool the intercooler. This tank contains windshield washer fluid as well. It doesn't fall under the rule as it is not sprayed into the engine, but really poses no different safety hazard - (or lack thereof) - than the injection tank.

Unneccessary rule IMHO.

[breakaway500]

If you really object to the regulations being proposed,I would suggest attending the club meeting where it will be formally discussed. You may not have a vote,but you do have the right to voice your objections to proposals and support for others. It's a bit political in nature..but it's a worthy cause. I learned a lot... The club has been around for a long time,51 years. I can see why.

[brucesallen]

And when was the last documented case on planet Earth in which a water/meth injection system contributed to a fire?

How about a death due to explosion?
http://www.emcins.com/lc/insights/insig ... rfluid.htm

Ever had a Flambe desert at a French restaurant? Washer fluids have the same or more alcohol than whiskey and liquor (40-50%).

Other interesting test data:
http://garrett-engineers.com/photograph ... -that-burn

Also useful for arson:
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/acb_kh.asp

[DanDarcy]

The young man who died when the windshield washer barrel exploded was from my town and left a young , pregnant wife with a new log cabin house that wasn't yet finished. It was a sad accident cause by "harmless" windshield washer fluid.