Computer upgrade clarification proposal - any thoughts?

[Crusin]

kC is correct, allowing the manual boost control does not address the problem with aftermarket or modified ECU's

To add to the confusion, what about factory kits like those offered with the SRT4 which, I believe, comes in three or four different stages of tune, all factory supported and warranteed. My guess is other cars offer similar packages.

[HerbD]

Would that part of the rule fix or help prevent someone running a WRX from upping their boost and not saying anything?

At the end of the day, there's nothing you can do to stop someone who
wants to cheat from cheating.

I feel like the goal of making rules is make it more advantageous to
tell the truth than to cheat.

Or, to put it another way, from my experience someone is more likely
to cheat if they have a common mod that isn't addressed by the rules
(like underdrive pulleys and ECU swaps).

The hope is that by having a rule that allows people to make the common
mods, that all these folks will want to be able to compete with others with
similar mods out in the open, on the same playing field.

On the flip side, a cheater who posts lousy lap times doesn't draw any
attention. When a cheater starts turning lap times that are similar to
cars who have admitted that they have mods, and are noticeably
faster than those who actually don't have mods, then they are outed
as a cheater.

Who wants to be known as a cheater?

[HerbD]

To add to the confusion, what about factory kits like those offered with the SRT4 which, I believe, comes in three or four different stages of tune, all factory supported and warranteed. My guess is other cars offer similar packages.

This is the reason that I think the time has come to allow ECU swaps in ST.

Particularly with OBD2 systems, allowing ECU flashes and changes is
essentially the same as allowing "aftermarket chips" was 15 years ago.

Note, however, that many of the packages for the SRT-4 include
fuel injector or turbo changes that would not be permitted under this
rule. Specifically, just Stage1 would be allowed.

[dinoracer]

Since I'm in SPA, these mods are already legal for me.

But I don't see what the fuss is about. Last May I duct-taped a whole can of pringles to my engine and didn't see a difference in my lap times. Although there was a pleasant mesquite-bar-b-que scent to the engine compartment...

Tom C
'65 Mustang 801
"king-o-the-rain" in SPA

[Stynger]

Just received Sportscar mag, it has the updated Fastrack news (basically SCCA's rule changes for next year)
You can see it at SCCA.com in the Garage section.
They have a similar problem with their Solo II classifications:

<<
Comment: With the increasing level of
electronic controls in all areas of engine
management, it is clear that it is very
difficult to police boost management
systems. Similar to a recent rules proposal
regarding variable valve/cam timing
systems, this proposal would effectively
restrict turbocharger/supercharger
hardware to the stock parts, but
would open up the controls, which, in
conjunction with existing allowances on
intake and exhaust systems, will result
in several forced induction cars making
more boost and therefore more power.
The SPAC is aware of these potential
performance increases, and will propose
re-classing certain cars if a considerable
performance gain is likely. Recent new
classifications of the Dodge SRT-4 in
CSP, the Mazdaspeed Miata in ASP, and
the proposed reclassification of both the
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution and
Subaru Impreza WRX STi from ESP to
BSP reflect some of these situations.
Additional reclassifications may be proposed
as more information presents
itself.
>>

[WillM]

This is the reason that I think the time has come to allow ECU swaps in ST.

Particularly with OBD2 systems, allowing ECU flashes and changes is
essentially the same as allowing "aftermarket chips" was 15 years ago.

I took a proactive approach to some of the rule change proposals that have been posted on the board, including this one. I printed up the rule change below (and a few others), brought them to NHIS, and asked fellow competitors to read the proposal. I asked members to sign the proposal if they agreed with it and welcomed discussion about the proposal - especially if they did not agree with the change. The idea behind this approach is to help rule change meetings along by showing popular approval (or lack of) on a rule change. I welcomed review from everyone, but specifically approached ST competitors. Anyway, I have to check, but I think there were at least 20 signatures on the following:

= = = = = = = = = =
CHANGE:
X. STREET TOURING
Section X.5.B.
In cars using computers, software or hardware replacement or changes of the factory ECU is permitted. Ignition coil may be upgraded. Any ignition may be used as long as the stock spark trigger (distributor) is used. The intent of this rule is to provide a means to alter rev limits, timing, fueling, and other engine performance perimeters, including boost levels. Manual boost controllers are permitted. A vehicle fitted with a manual boost controller or ECU which raises the boost level above stock shall be classified in STGT, regardless of where it came from in SS

Purpose for change:
The purpose of this rule change is to clarify the current rule which allows changing ‘chips’. Some vehicles require software or hardware changes to achieve the same benefits that upgraded ‘chips’ achieve in other cars. This rule evens the playing field by allowing these modifications to all the cars in ST – not just those that benefit from ‘chips’.

I support the above rule change:

= = = = = = = = = =
The wording was taken from this forum thread. Boost control was initially left out with a notation that it deserved its own specific rule. I changed the proposal to include the boost control aspect after Herb posted the suggestion to move cars straight to STGT, and seemed to get some support for it.

[DanDarcy]

Since I'm in SPA, these mods are already legal for me.

But I don't see what the fuss is about. Last May I duct-taped a whole can of pringles to my engine and didn't see a difference in my lap times. Although there was a pleasant mesquite-bar-b-que scent to the engine compartment... :o

Tom ; I noticed some smoke coming from the back of your car this past Saturday ... What were your cooking ? If I try the pringles, are the vinegar and onions faster in the motor than the mesquite-bar-b-que ??? :violent5:

Back to the ECU s, I think it is imposible for the club to police reprogramed computers, there fore if a car is turboed or supercharged and has the capacity to change the boost with a chip or reflashing the ecu it should go into a seperate class. Maybe SSGT.

At this past week's event I was behind 2 WRXs not the STI just the plain WRX. In the past I could always pull away from these on the straight like they were parked. Saturday the 2 I was behind would leave me like I was parked and no there is nothing wrong with my car, it runs as good as ever. When you chip these cars and change the boost with the ecu , the performance gains can be quit incredible.

Dan D'Arcy
Mustang #310 ST1

[rajito]

At this past week's event I was behind 2 WRXs not the STI just the plain WRX. In the past I could always pull away from these on the straight like they were parked. Saturday the 2 I was behind would leave me like I was parked and no there is nothing wrong with my car, it runs as good as ever. When you chip these cars and change the boost with the ecu , the performance gains can be quit incredible.

FWIW, the STi on a four wheel dyno (like DynoDynamics) makes about 220-230 at the wheels and weighs 3300lbs. None of the STi's that showed up had ECU or boost control, and 3 of the 4 in the non-instructor group were bone stock.

I've driven with most of the WRX's, and though some of them creep away from me in the straights, I'm aware of only one of them laughs in my face and runs away. However, the weather was pretty cool and turbos love cold air.

WRX's are already in SSGT and STi's are in SSU. I'm not sure where other turbos/supercharged cars go - Mini Cooper S? I like Herb's proposal that boost control automatically puts the car into STGT.

Raj

[zip4zat]

At this past week's event I was behind 2 WRXs not the STI just the plain WRX. In the past I could always pull away from these on the straight like they were parked. Saturday the 2 I was behind would leave me like I was parked and no there is nothing wrong with my car, it runs as good as ever. When you chip these cars and change the boost with the ecu , the performance gains can be quit incredible.

FWIW, the STi on a four wheel dyno (like DynoDynamics) makes about 220-230 at the wheels and weighs 3300lbs. None of the STi's that showed up had ECU or boost control, and 3 of the 4 in the non-instructor group were bone stock.

I've driven with most of the WRX's, and though some of them creep away from me in the straights, I'm aware of only one of them laughs in my face and runs away. However, the weather was pretty cool and turbos love cold air.

WRX's are already in SSGT and STi's are in SSU. I'm not sure where other turbos/supercharged cars go - Mini Cooper S? I like Herb's proposal that boost control automatically puts the car into STGT.

Raj

Although I tend to agree with the idea of Herb's proposal, Wrx Sti's that only have a muffler upgrade is put into STGT, where a boost controlled STI would also be in STGT. This would go for any car that starts out in SSU moving into ST class.

Just by this premise, I am moving towards agreeing that boost control moves you to the appropriate SP class.

[AndyC]

First post, so a big "hey" to everybody; Glad to see you all at NHIS this past weekend!

I have a turbo car and plan on modifications. The impact of boost controllers in ST isnt going to be that big. ST rules don't allow changes in intercooler, removal of the cat or increase in fuel injector size/fuel pump capability. All of these are crucial in making power with high boost, otherwise the engine life is shortened considerably. A few psi is all you can really get away with on a stock engine. So if a wrx does show up at and event pushing 25 psi of boost, you probably wont see them at the next one...

As for me, I'm going to just build the car I want and run SPB.

[rajito]

Add the fact that neither the WRX nor the STi are the quickest in their group, by far. In SSGT where the WRX runs, you have the 287hp Nissan 350Z - 60hp more than the WRX and the 275hp Camaro V8's. In SSU where the STi and Evo run, you have 420hp Corvette Z06s that weigh less and 500hp Vipers that never show up.

Even if boost was allowed in SS (I'm not at all suggesting it should be), these cars wouldn't be the 600 pound gorillas of their group.

Ok, I'm getting off the soapbox
Raj

[RyanC]

First post, so a big "hey" to everybody; Glad to see you all at NHIS this past weekend!

I have a turbo car and plan on modifications. The impact of boost controllers in ST isnt going to be that big. ST rules don't allow changes in intercooler, removal of the cat or increase in fuel injector size/fuel pump capability. All of these are crucial in making power with high boost, otherwise the engine life is shortened considerably. A few psi is all you can really get away with on a stock engine. So if a wrx does show up at and event pushing 25 psi of boost, you probably wont see them at the next one...

As for me, I'm going to just build the car I want and run SPB.

Andy makes a good point. My stock intercooler already heat soaks with stock boost levels on anything other than a 60 degree day. A boost bump thru either the ECU or a boost controller might do well for a dyno chart, but it won't be all that effective in the track world, since heat will take its toll all the faster. Plus, I don't need any more power to pass the Stangs of the world, except when you guys neglect to let off the gas when you give point-bys. At that point, I need a Michael Knight style 'turbo' button, just for the straights.

I think a bump to SP due to boost changes is a little excessive, considering the fact that anyone who would make the change would be forced to kill the streetability of their car with the addition of a rollbar and harnesses. Any lets be honest here; we street car drivers spend way more time on the street than we do at COM events, so that's going to be a strong influence on what gets done to the car.

FYI my car is competitive in STGT and has the following mods:
Subaru springs - slightly stiffer than stock, still an OEM part
Catted downpipe
Cat-back exhaust
K&N intake
RA-1 tires
Street/track pads

And as Raj has ably demonstrated, you can be competitive in a bone stock car, in certain situations.

Upping the boost, while staying within the remainder of the STGT-legal mods, *might* give me a 0.5 second/lap improvement at a long track like the Glen... for a lap. It probably wouldn't do anything at NHIS, other than burn more gas. I'd be better off buying hoosiers, for the same (or better) improvement. I think the NA guys may be overestimating the real world effectiveness of 'more boost' for us Suby guys.

However, if it were a legal mod, I'd probably do it, just because I've got a certain White Elephant knocking at my door, and there's no way I can fit 315s on my car to try and keep up.

[Stynger]

Andy makes a good point. My stock intercooler already heat soaks with stock boost levels on anything other than a 60 degree day. A boost bump thru either the ECU or a boost controller might do well for a dyno chart, but it won't be all that effective in the track world, since heat will take its toll all the faster.

Dependability for the practice sessions is one thing, a run in a time trial is another.
Full fuel and more boost is going to be an advantage for a few laps even with a stock IC.
IMO a time trial is where the rules should get their basis.

[AndyC]

I think a bump to SP due to boost changes is a little excessive, considering the fact that anyone who would make the change would be forced to kill the streetability of their car with the addition of a rollbar and harnesses. Any lets be honest here; we street car drivers spend way more time on the street than we do at COM events, so that's going to be a strong influence on what gets done to the car.

Rollbar for me isn't so bad as it's only a two seater, so streetability is okay. As for the harness, it isn't needed until you reach prepared class. Although its something I will definately think about.

I don't think people are worried about the few psi setting which would probably make it through the time trial. Its the high boost (i.e. +5 to +15 psi over stock) that is the problem. Taking a vehicle with only intake and cat back exhaustand cranking the boost that much is asking for pre-ignition and pop!

[mossaidis]

I have nothing really to add here from my orginal post except that there probably needs to be discussion by the BOD if boosted ST cars should go in SSGT or respective SP class. We can submit all the varied proposals we want, but I would like to propose one that will pass. Also, I have not researched or understood the true HP gains of boosted Sub's. It's probably an important question to understand for safety reasons...

In the meantime, I'm counter some earlier points on what boost does to wHP, and I'm stand by my previous (corrected for accuracy) example from Raj's earlier thread on boost:

viewtopic.php?t=115

"a SSA '03 VW Beetle GL 1.8 turbo makes 150 hp. If you allow boost increase in ST, this now ST2 VW will make 220+ hp, a net gain of over 70 Hp....compare to a ST2 '85 BMW 325e, a NA SSA car that benefits greatly from an ECU upgrade. Stock 325e makes 140 HP. The same model with ECU changes will upgrade it to 164 HP..."

The 2.7 liter BMW nets 24 HP, and the 1.8T VW nets 70+ hp. The owner of this VW runs with BMW cca and Auto-X's and he has had no problems running with a lot of upped boost. At 50K miles, the car and the owner (a mechanic) convinced me that there are no worries.

If so, the only real issue here is if putting boosted SS/ST cars in SSGT is safe. Could a boosted Sub' with no brake or suspension mods go faster than what "might" be safe? (I have heard of subs not having adeqaute stock brakes for instance, even when have they have track pads...) That always depends a lot on the driver of course, but where do we draw the line? Honestly, I have no idea. Again, a question for an experienced and knowledgable BODs.

As far not being able to detect if cars are boosted brings an interesting point. Just because a stewart can't detect a mod doesn't mean that we should make it legal. I certainly could put "mild" cams in the Honda and no one needs to know, but I won't cause it would be cheating. I'm sure folks are stretching the rules a little. There is a definitely a push and pull between safety and allowing more mods in street cars to have fun on the track. Hopefully we can clarify the rules, have fun and stay safe.

Just a thought: Perhaps boosted SS/ST cars should have a rollcage, or at least a roll bar...