Brake pads

[Abdias]

Hey everyone,

I am in the process of choosing new track brake pads for my Camaro which is about 3780LBS without gas or driver and I have read up on quite a few of the different compounds and manufactures. My biggest question is, do I keep the same compound brake pad at all four corners or should I use a lesser aggressive compound in the rear as it appears most of manufacture's recommend? I am using 200 Tread wear Goodyear tires.

Yes I have high performance fluid and hoses. For next year I should be on R compounds and will be fitting cooling ducts and possibly an entire brake system upgrade.

Please also feel free to share your experiences with the different pads available. What are your favorites?

~Abdi

[962porsche]

There is more than most think when it comes to getting to most out of your braking system .
so as for running two diferent compounds on some cars it works and others not so good .
that has to do with the balance of your braking system and just what type of pad your running .
as for fluid don't even think about a DOT 5 synthetic it's made for airplanes that come down from high freezing altitudes to ground level and still offer brakes that work . the dot 5 will give your car a spongy feel unless you change out all rubber seals . it's not worth the headeach !
use a dot 4 plus or known as a dot 5.1 brake fluid .
if you ask what pads people like you will get just as many different answers as people you ask . this has to do with many things .
1st on the car you are using them on has to do with what pads the car will like and then is how you also use your brakes . some people like to trail brake and others don't along with some people tend to always brake hard and later were others will tend to scrub off speed by pressing the peddle ez to full braking .

on my VW that car tends to like ferodo pads , were my porsche and diasio like hawk full race pads .
i have tried the carbotechs , ebc's and many others but thats what i ended up running on those cars .
i have been told the carbotech race pads work the best on miata's so i will have to try them 1st when i take that car to the track .
a friend that races in auto cross with his new camaro also like the carbotechs race pads he tells me they come up to temp very fast and when he does to track days they do not over heat .this spring i did the brakes on his car and he was using EBC he said they did not work well for the autocrossing but were ok for track days . he also runs cooling ducts for track days only .

[CP]

Fresh DOT4 fluid with stainless braided brake lines (the stock rubber lines expand under track conditions and result in a soft pedal). I've tried all sorts of different pads with multiple cars: Stoptech big brake kit, Hawk DTC, Porterfield R4, Hawk Blue, Pagid, EBC, Cobalt. I run Hawk Blues on my race Miata and won't use anything else. The Hawk DTC pads (similar I'm told to Carbotechs) had WAY too much pedal travel for my liking so I ditched them after the first day on track. In my 2400 pound sled, I have zero issue with trail braking, left foot braking, fade or pedal feel with the Blues. But everybody has a different preference for what their brakes should feel like, so try something and move on if you don't like how those pads feel/perform. There are many many options available.

[wizzman]

It would be good to hear from some of the Corvette guys, and girls about the pads they are using as that would be a good reference point. What works on a Miata will be very different than what works on heavy car like that.

[dradernh]

In addition to polling the Corvette and American iron guys in the club, you could also try calling Ryan Jones at http://www.essexparts.com (704) 824-6030. He knows brakes and what works, and he can certainly get you started with something that will work with your particular setup. Ryan can go over factors like stopping power, initial bite, release characteristics, and longevity with you, as well as the specifics of your car like cooling ducts, tire compounds, aerodynamics, your driving style, and the tracks you'll be running. Essex supplies some of the Sprint Cup teams, so they're quite familiar with high HP/high weight cars. No affiliation.

[Bobc]

As one of the "corvette" guys i have to say it is personal preference we were running Hawk HP + pads both ends for awhile with R compound tires, till we got faster now we run more agressive pads If you are just starting out the hp+ is very good it can be used on the street in a pinch but the harder you go the more like likey they will wear out very quickly ( like 1 weekend) our current pads are only good for 2 weekends. I have tried carbo tech, wilwood, and hawk in varied compunds. Alot of the vette guys use split compounds more agressive front pads but I like the same pad front and rear. One thing to think about is bring spare rotors and check them after every run, we crack on average 2 per weekend even with the spindle ducts.

[962porsche]

if your in any way just up brakes in one weekend of track time you should think about going to a full carbon ceramic rotor . they will not crack ! the cost up front is much more but they will last a long ass time .
i have changed many of my customers over to them that were eating up there pads and rotors from track use .
you will have to up grade your fluid to a 5.1 as they work at a much higher temp then the stock rotors with HP race pads .

[Abdias]

Thank you for all the responses guys.

I was definitely hoping to hear from the guys with cars that are 3200lbs or higher like the WRX's, Evo's, stock Corvettes, newer BMW's etc..

I brought this topic up in a Camaro forum and the conversation was just plain stupid. Ideally I will learn from other peoples mistakes, but I realize that there is a lot of trial and error on these subjective conversations.

Since 0800 this morning I think I've spoken with all the major brake pad distributors in North America. I'm still undecided as they are all so conflicting... I am honestly shocked that the "experts" don't have a common path for guys like me.

[Mick]

Great to see you're coming back Abdi.

Lots of good advice here. Without a direct recommendation from someone who has tracked the same car I go with something along the lines of what Bob said. And I'd start with the same compound front/rear as a baseline. Do you plan on leaving the pads in or swap pads for track/street?

One other factor to keep in mind if you don't have dedicated track wheels yet... Some track pads create metallic dust that, if it gets wet, fuses to your wheels and is near impossible to get off. IIRC Hawk Blues are especially bad.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autocro ... osive.html

[962porsche]

like i said you ask 100 people you will get 100 different answers .
there is no sted fast rule when it comes to brake and brake systems . no two people use them in the same way nor do they drive the same .
get what you think is going to work for you then take your brake temps . the temps will tell you on what brake pads you have to use to get the heat in them that they need to work .
most HP pads like temps around 800 to 1000 degrees (rotor temps )
when you start going with temps over that you will have to find a way to cool the rotors and pads or go with a carbon ceramic rotors .
if your rotor temps are only getting up to say 600 or 700 degrees then they are to cool and will not work as they should and that too you will have to find a way to get the temps up .
the same can be said for your tires they too have a temp they like to work at to cold and they don't stick to hot and they also don't stick and you will blister them .

start with say Hawk HP pads then get a brake and tire pyrometer and start taking your temps right when you come in from the track . take cold temps and hot temps that is the only true way to tell what your car needs .


this is a for instance of what i meen :
this past week end i was setting up a customers car at LRP .
i built the new 4link rear and installed a dry sump system for him .
when we got there the car was only doing high 1:07 i asked the driver how the car was handling and he said great .
i then started taking temps tires and brakes by monday with setting up the car more he was truning high 1:03's there is still more work to do but it has to be done at the shop but i'm sure the car can get into the 1 minute times .
it was all in the temps he was running nothing else !

[dradernh]

take your brake temps

This is the easiest way I've found to find out how hot your rotors are getting on the track: http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_ ... on=product

[dtlemoine]

I was definitely hoping to hear from the guys with cars that are 3200lbs or higher like the WRX's, Evo's, stock Corvettes, newer BMW's etc.

E36 BMW M3 at 3400# with driver

PFC pads, period.

http://www.performancefriction.com/moto ... tions.aspx

I've used 01, 06, and 08. The 01's bite a bit harder, but wear a bit quicker. The 06's and 08's are bulletproof and seem to almost not wear at all. Work at all temp ranges (below freezing and upwards of 1000 deg F), so well that I leave them on the car year-round. They clean off the wheels fairly easily as well (most standard auto-parts-store wheel cleaner if its really baked on, just soap and water for a light coating).

They're a bit pricier than some of the others pads folks have mentioned above, but in my application, they've lasted longer than anything else I've ever run, well exceeding their cost/benefit ratio.

[962porsche]

paint type temp gauge's work ok but they will not tell you the exact temp .
you really need to know the exact temp to set up your brakes for that days racing .
if your brakes like to run in a temp range of say 900 degrees and they are only getting up to say 750 or 800 degrees at a track like LRP then you will have to close off some of the cooling duct to build the heat needed to get to most out of your braking system .
this is one of the problems that was going on this past weekend . the brakes were not coming up to the right temp they needed to be he was having to brake at the #3 marker to slow the enough to make big bend . once i closed off the cooling ducts a little the temps came up to the 900 degree rang and he then was able to brake just after the #2 marker into big bend . at a track like LRP were your only braking 3 times and your saving over a second just because of that think of what it will do at a track like nhms were your on your brakes allot more .
thats why exact temps are more important than knowing just if your brakes did get over a certain temp or not .


there is a way to also save rotors that tend to crack and that is to roll the car after you get in from a run session .
after your car is sitting for a minute or so roll it to change the position of the pad on the rotor . it's best to do it two or three times as your brakes are cooling back down . this way your pads will not tend to heat sink the rotors in one spot and crack or warp them .


it's not really true any brake pad can work at all temps . if that was really the case they would not offer different compounds . to get the most out of any brake pad and the compound your using you have to go by and keep them in the range they are designed to run in . again it comes down to getting the most out of your brakes .

[dradernh]

paint type temp gauge's work ok but they will not tell you the exact temp .
you really need to know the exact temp to set up your brakes for that days racing .

I don't think it's that complicated. In my case anyway, I've found the granularity of the Genesis paint to be more than sufficient; the scale can be seen here: http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/e ... 3811_1.pdf. No question that to get the most out of it you want to run the pad in the temperature range recommended by the manufacturer.

Besides, how else are you going to get on-track temps without resorting to sensors hooked up to a data acquisition system? Or is that what you're doing?

Your point regarding tracks is well-taken. I block brake ducts at Lime Rock, Tremblant and Mosport for the reason you outlined.

[962porsche]

in many case it's not as importent as i may make it seam . but when i works from newman racing and risi they made it that important so id did kind of stick with me . it does work as it did this past weekend when we picked up over a second a lap . it has also worked like that every time i have done the same thing .
the paint is just one more tool to use but just like taking temps with a pyrometer the more you can dial in your braking system to the track for that next run or day the beter your lap times will be .
ther is also the fact you should be taking your temps of the pads and not your rotors as the temps the brake manufactors give you is of the pads and not the rotor temps . though most of the time they are very close to the same .