PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

[DanB]

You might think but, when physics meats reality things do no always go as one might think .....

mmmm, physics meats...

[Brendan]

Don't mind torque adjustment? Running an S14 you should love this. Very high hp number, and not so good torque. Pretty soon people understand that area under the curve is everything with a hp capped class system when you want to run at the sharp end of a competitive field.

The only reason I mentioned it - you implied that I didn't want it, when I mentioned it in my initial response...

Then you get into a listing of common sizes for common cars. Tough to deal with. Limit tire size or don't.

Don't. Leave it out. Less is better here.

I agree. But if guys wanted to get more accurate with classing - this is a big factor. It's important. It would be on my list of potential adjustments.

This is a tough one. In the interest of simplicity? Leave it all out. But from a selfish perspective, If I'm going to end up in Super (regardless if I like it or not) they'd help me... So penalize all the newer aerodynamic cars while we're at it, and I can keep driving my late 80's German brick

Detuning an engine has a bazillion benefits - cost, reliability, power under the curve...

Detuning isn't always that easy for an NA engine - basically removing parts that people have to go source and dial back to or putting in restrictors, but it can be done... While we're at it - peak has nothing to do with Power under the curve - hard to improve power under the curve by detuning an NA engine. But, the ringer engine for any Power to Weight class will be a small displacement turbo - because it can be tuned to a flat power curve. I'm waiting for the first person to put big money into an engine, show up with really high level boost control with HP and TQ curves like a table top and completely tunable peak power and slaughter the rest of their class because of real power under the curve... Theoretically, you could do this in Touring without much of an impact if you use engine points and it doesn't change the peak HP and TQ values...

[PaddyMcP]

It's interesting you think a turbo is the way to a flat power/tq curve. That's the last type of engine I'd use.

[Brendan]

It's interesting you think a turbo is the way to a flat power/tq curve. That's the last type of engine I'd use.

If you have the right boost control is the trick (Electronic, Closed Loop, PID Implementation, tuned right) , and assuming a small enough turbo to build power before you get to 3K rpm, or wherever your lowest racing RPM is... With the right ECU you can tune different boost vs. RPM, different maps for different gears, basically dialing back boost as RPM rises or where needed in the rev range. End result? Boosting power in the "off peak" areas without affecting the peak.... Would take a lot of work, but it could be done...

[PaddyMcP]

I haven't done it personally on the dyno, but pull timing till the cows come home. A lot of the GTS bmw guys do it with very good results on NA motors to gain an advantage in slower classes. They get a flat curve, increase reliability and put less strain on the engine.

You gotta start thinking outside of the s14 box. There are loads of engines that run NA with a flat power curve. And remember you have to wait for that turbo to spool. There's nothing like snapping the throttle open on a strong NA engine. There are tenths to be gained there against a turbo with no antilag.

-Paddy

[Jimmy Pet]

I do not understand why it is believed the Prepared rules are broken?
Its perfect in its simplicity.
They can mess up or "fix" all the other classes,,, why cant we just leave Prepared alone? It should at least be put to a vote by those who actually compete in the class,,, not by people who think its broken from the sidelines.

I know I dont want, nor will I bother with (a) dynoing my car, (b) weighing my car, or (c) bothering to plug any other silliness into any formula (d) ever ever "detuning" any part of it to try to fit into a class. I build my car to run as well as it can run. The last thing I'm going to do is dial power OUT of it on purpose, or add weight, or any other thing like that. Thats why I choose to run in an open class. Prepared is an open class. What is being proposed ceases to make it an open class. It adds parameters that need to be considered.

The current classing is a work of art in the openness and simplicity.
Knives against knives, swords against swords, guns against guns.
I have said this in other threads, the beauty of the current system is you can literally do whatever you want to your car, and unless you add a hole with a piston and a sparkplug in it,,, you are good to go. Thats not how it will be in the proposed "Super" class. I and other players will have to think about what we do and what we change and how will it effect my class. Nope. Not for me. I do COM for two reasons, I like the people, and I love the classing in Prepared.
Count my cylinders and leave me alone.
If a Baby Grand shows up, or a FP Miata, or an EP RX7 thats great competition (along with the E30 M3 contingent or any 944s). Who knows where it would be in the current system.. I know I dont have the patiance to bother plugging it all into a formula to find out.
I do know how easy it is to see it the current way.

The NASA format is neither perfect, nor good for many cars. The NASA GTS type classing is TERRIBLE for 4 cylinders. Do you see ANY 4 cylinders racing in GTS?
No
Why, because its effectively legislated them out of possible competitiveness.

If I were to change anything,,, I would ADD a PFI class, and dump any Prepared level prep forced induction car into it.
The modern crop of Forced Induction cars at that level of prep that would put them in Prepared have way to many power adding variables and technology these days to simply bump the up one cylinder class. The modern crop of forced induction cars are in a class of their own, they can triple in power from stock in a blink.
Make a forced induction class and let them battle bazooka vs. bazooka.

I'm a cursory player in the COM world, I'm an away event guy, not part of he COM local family,,, so I dont really matter, but I still think it should be voted on ONLY by people with "P" on the side of their car.

I know I'd probably continue to come to the COM events I participate in already,,, I'd do the 1st day, and then do the practice sessions for the 2nd day, but really doubt I'd bother to wait around for the TT in the "Super" format as its being proposed as I just dont think its all that "Super".
I dont race with NASA GTS, because it puts my car in a very bad place, and sadly the same would go for me with COM should it go that way.

[McMahonRacing]

[quote ..... PA was just kinda a fun class w/ no rules, I liked chasing the fast guy then finally getting to his level and moving to the next, we all have our rabbits .... for me, from day # 1 I have sorted the results by time just to see where I was & if I did any better regardless of what I was running against, how many of the prepared guys feel the same ( simply put did I beat my rabbit ) and then add in "track advantage" and all things just go out the window as could be seen last yr @ say WGI ( and backed up by current NASA results ) ..... I would suspect if you took all the prepared cars, broke them up w/ the same time spread in Touiring ( 6 - 17 sec, w/ the majority being in the 6-8 sec. range ) then just let them have it, it might actually attract some folks, COM has the timing system in place might as well use it.
[/quote]

Jimmy, how about this ..... couple of preppared classes based a few seconds apart, you win two in a row & you're bumped up a class, no other rules we just run ..... the tinkerer class

[boltonite]

In the end of the day - the members will decide the fate of the club. If the prepared guys get together and want it a certain way - we'll make it that way. It's their party.
[snip]
I know exactly why Jimmy and Brendan and Fred like p classes. They have $10K 4 cylinder engines making huge 4 cylinder power. That's a hell of a combo for winning p classes. It sucks to have a car with a nice advantage and strip it away after a rule change. I think we've all gone through that at least once in some context. Some of us more than once - (fred!)

This certainly wasn't the right place for this post... but who cares.

-Paddy

Thanks Paddy for assuring us that rules changes will be guided by what a majority of members (in Prepared) want. Personally, I would leave Prepared alone. Forced induction may be an issue but I don't yet see it in the TT results.

And let me openly state that my tepid support for the Touring rules has nothing to do with my car or my motor. Except for a small piece of carpet my car has never been prepped for COM. A system based on assigning points (or not) to every conceivable mod - including tires - to achieve fairness is ... noble. And this is what the majority of Touring folks want so I'm okay with that. And if the majority want to rely on a dyno and scales to class Prepared cars I'm okay with that too but I don't see it as compelling nor as an improvement, nor do I believe it will affect the outcome for me personally. I have no agenda.

-FF

[TroyV]

.....except to kick ASS!!!

[PaddyMcP]

A system based on assigning points (or not) to every conceivable mod - including tires - to achieve fairness is ... noble. And this is what the majority of Touring folks want so I'm okay with that. And if the majority want to rely on a dyno and scales to class Prepared cars I'm okay with that too but I don't see it as compelling nor as an improvement, nor do I believe it will affect the outcome for me personally. I have no agenda.

One of the guys who I never have to doubt if they want the best for the club. Thanks for chiming in. I wish some different prepared guys would get in on the conversation. It's their future, and some of them do build to com rules.

Except for a small piece of carpet my car has never been prepped for COM.
-FF

That's how you build a car for the old COM ruleset. Start with a headliner, carpet and turn signal. Build an engine and suspension around those three key components.

-Paddy

[boltonite]

Rumor has it at NHMS-2, after the Relay Rally the losers will form a Conga line to shake-n-bake's BBQ and sing Kumbaya!
And the winners will be allowed to cut the line without a point by: COM-by-ya!

[blazer178]

Well I have not said much about the new rules proposal and from what I have seen it seem to be working for the touring classes. Now I do not want to have them play with what we have in PA . I did not build my truck or car just for com I build it so I can do other things with it and have fun with it where ever I run. I do not want be put in a box for one group. I build the motor so I can have as much fun with it and so far I am pleased. But I will say this right now I will not be taking out any of the power or adding any weight just to comply with any rules that some think is broke. I did not come to COM to fit in to any rule I came here to have fun and enjoy everyone that I have raced against even if I was not very fast but I did have fun. Now I do understand that there is some here for the trophy and for bragging rights but some of us are still here for the fun factor.
So I am hoping they leave PA alone because I am happy with the fact I can do anything to my truck at any time I want to. I do think that there should be a class for the turbo or forced induction cars but that is it.

[Brendan]

I haven't done it personally on the dyno, but pull timing till the cows come home.

And this increases EGTs, and depending how much timing you pull the mixture can finish burning in the exhaust as opposed to in the cylinder, puts more strain / wear on your exhaust valves, can throw off AFRs if the mixture hasn't burned completely, and you start to get heatsoak on that side of the head.... I've talked to a couple tuners (Matt included) - their suggestion, time your engine to best power and run the required octane. Sure, you can pull some timing safely without issue and does decrease cylinder pressures if it's a knock issue, but it's not a perfect solution and you certainly can't "Pull timing till the cows come home" without doing some testing.... Bottom line, you can detune some with timing, but it's not a free ride to shape your power curve.

You gotta start thinking outside of the s14 box. There are loads of engines that run NA with a flat power curve. And remember you have to wait for that turbo to spool. There's nothing like snapping the throttle open on a strong NA engine. There are tenths to be gained there against a turbo with no antilag.

This concept has nothing to do with the S14... Sure, I agree a well tuned NA engine is a hell of a lot easier, and a hell of a lot cheaper, and it'll be what I'm running. All I'm saying is if you have the $$$ to put into the hardware and the tuning, a proper turbo setup and proper control will outperform NA in Power to Weight no questions asked. You could make significant improvements to the area under the curve when looking at a 4-cyl without making huge changes to peak power. Lag isn't even a factor if you size the turbo and manifold appropriately (read: small), keep velocities up, and there's nothing to say if someone has the cash they couldn't just run anti-lag....

Hey, it's all bench racing, I think the chances of someone doing this are small, but don't discount it as a possibility if someone decides they want to... And, it could be in one of the touring classes (even a lower one) if someone expends the effort, and classes their car based on a dyno chart instead of engine points...

[eastcoastbumps]

I do not understand why it is believed the Prepared rules are broken?

The current classing is a work of art in the openness and simplicity.
Knives against knives, swords against swords, guns against guns.

It may not be as apparent at the away events, but if you come to a NHMS event where there are bigger fields in SP and P it becomes more noticeable. The majority of people in Prepared have not built their car to run in Prepared. They build it for the sake of building it or they have built it to run somewhere else and they get caught in the 'catch all' that is Prepared or Street Prepared. This works out well if you get 'caught' into the pointy end of the class, but for the majority in Prepared and Street Prepared, it does not work out so well. Prior to the new Touring rules, a Spec Miata was in PC. The butter knife of PC. I call that broken...

The SPC, SPB and SPC NHMS track records are within half a second of each other. The PC, PB and PA records are also within half second of each other. Prior lap times and records are no reason to combine classes or reclass cars, but it goes to show you that C, B, and A are more paper, scissors, rock than knife, sword, gun.

[boltonite]

The majority of people in Prepared have not built their car to run in Prepared. They build it for the sake of building it or they have built it to run somewhere else and they get caught in the 'catch all' that is Prepared or Street Prepared.

Whoa, this line of reasoning was only valid LAST YEAR. To use it now, "Super" becomes the new "catch-all" when you max-out of Touring [STREET Prepared is slated for extinction, so I've heard], making Prepared and Super no different in this respect.

This works out well if you get 'caught' into the pointy end of the class, but for the majority in Prepared and Street Prepared, it does not work out so well. Prior to the new Touring rules, a Spec Miata was in PC. The butter knife of PC. I call that broken...

Again, that was true LAST YEAR. A spec miata now lands in T40 or T50. What was "broken" before was not Prepared but the old STREET rules.

The SPC [sic], SPB and SPC NHMS track records are within half a second of each other. The PC, PB and PA records are also within half second of each other. Prior lap times and records are no reason to combine classes or reclass cars, but it goes to show you that C, B, and A are more paper, scissors, rock than knife, sword, gun.

Those records are skewed by car & driver & circumstance. Do you really think if I ran my car as a 450 HP (turbo S14) PB car I would be 0.5 seconds off my pace in the same car in PC trim? I'd guess ~2 seconds faster at NHMS (south oval), which is what the "blunt hammer" that is Prepared is designed to account for, imo.
FF