SPB rule questions

[savage217]

Hey guys,

I know someone just created an SP thread regarding a clause but I have a few questions myself regarding the following:

XI.1. Interior
1. Cars must be equipped with street interior consisting of stock dash board, door panels, side panels. Rear seat, all carpet, and
headliner may be removed.
2. Roll bars and roll cages are highly recommended
3. The passenger seat may be removed when a “Petty Bar” is installed. The passenger seat must be an automotive seat, safely
mounted, and suitable for an adult passenger. A harness of similar type to the driver's must be installed.

1) The rule states I must retain, door panels and stock dashboard. Does the glovebox count as part of the dashboard? My glovebox is a seperate part and can be easily removed.

My interpretation of this section is the following:

Deleting anything and everything minus the dashboard, which should refer to a one piece section that cannot be compromised unless of course a cage were installed, is permitted. This includes glovebox, all tar, all carpet (which is mentioned) any metal non structural pieces, center console, airbag, can all be removed. Is this an accurate interpretation?

[breakaway500]

I'd say air bag deletion is OK as it is allowed in ST..however,only if a 5 point (or better) harness is added.

"3. Airbags may be removed provided the car is equipped with a minimum of a 5 point harness."

As far as the rest of it is concerned..I'd have to say....I'm not 100% sure. Yes..a pretty poor answer. The usual response in cases like this is: "if it does not specifically say you can do something,you can't". However,the way the rule is written,it could be argued either way. What is a "street" interior?Does that mean complete as normally driven on the street..? What is a stock dashboard,and does it include the glove box and console? Or,is the dash "board" just the structure that holds the instrument panel? I am really having a tough time defining many of the street class rules as there could be opposing opinions on much of the language... In my opinion,I'd say have at it..but that's only my interpretation of the rule..which is vague to say the least.

[nateh]

"if it does not specifically say you can do something,you can't"

applies only to SS and ST. In SP and P, it's the other way around. Air bags are not required in SP.

The question of glove box has not previously been asked, to my knowledge. My reading of the rules would be that it is not required.

[breakaway500]

"if it does not specifically say you can do something,you can't"
"applies only to SS and ST. In SP and P, it's the other way around. Air bags are not required in SP."

Good to know. I knew it was "the other way around" in Prepared,but because SP was a street car class(?) I was of the assumption that the unspoken was still illegal.

For the record,I believe this is the defining line in SP rules that allows "other way around" restrictions to be in force:
"Street Prepared automobiles must comply with section VI, then any modifications are permitted while observing the following
restrictions.."



It appears Nick is free to rip!...

[Brendan]

This is an interesting question. In SP, door panels are required by the rules, but if a cage interferes with their installation, then they are not (This applies to all classes). Here's the rule:

5. In all classes, interior panels, trim, and carpets may be modified or removed to the extent required to
accommodate roll bars, roll cages, or other safety equipment. This includes the modification or removal of
door panels, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars, even in classes that require
such components. Cars determined by the Scrutineers to have removed interior panels beyond the spirit of this
rule will be bumped up one class.

Could the same be said for a dashboard? What if you don't want to cut holes in an expensive dashboard because of a full cage? Per the rule above, it isn't mentioned explicitly, but could a dashboard be considered an "interior panel" or "trim"?

Right now, I personally am not running side panels because I can no longer mount them, but I butchered my dash... (SPC)

[paultg]

I'm no expert on the rules; but I think this part: "may be modified or removed to the extent required to accommodate" is subject to interpretation. I think it be hard to prove the entire dash had to be removed (and not modified/reinstalled) to accommodate said safety equipment.

Paul G.

[Brendan]

I'm no expert on the rules; but I think this part: "may be modified or removed to the extent required to accommodate" is subject to interpretation. I think it be hard to prove the entire dash had to be removed (and not modified/reinstalled) to accommodate said safety equipment.

Paul G.

Well, My dash couldn't physically fit without being modified (fairly extensively). So my choice was either modify or remove. If you apply the wording above, then the choice seems to be open to interpretation as you said - which is a little bit of a grey area.

[paultg]

well, i still think you'd have a real hard time if you removed the entire dash. You would have to defend/prove that the entire dash had to be removed and left out to install the cage. Aren't there plenty of caged E30s around with modified stock dashboards?

I can see the concern too; I would think a good condition E30 dash might be something worth selling, instead of ruining it. If I were in your shoes I'd probably look for a bad dashboard (cracked, etc.) to modify and reinstall, but again I'm no expert.

I just don't think the intent of the rule is to allow the option of not reinstalling the dash, rather to allow folks to cut as needed to get it back in.

[Brendan]

I'm really just playing devils advocate... Why is it okay to remove side panels and other trim then, and not the dash? Why not modify the side and door panels to the extent required to get them to fit, if that's what you have to do with the dash? (And yes, there are plenty of E30's around with modified stock dashes, but they're not getting any cheaper or easier to find...)

Basically, I think the rule could be more clear instead of leaving a grey area and open to interpretation... If people want the dash left in, specifically say that the stock dash may not be removed in SP, that it may only be modified to clear cage and safety gear as required...

[dinoracer]

Brendan

I agree there is some ambiguity in the rules. I think a "street" car should have a full dashboard - cut holes to accommodate the the roll cage. Once you've caged a car, the car's value has more to do with it's race car quality than it's pristine interior.

Please feel free to submit a proposed change to the rules that will clear that up. It's how these rules were written in the first place, by member's inputs.

Myself, I feel like we've already pushed the mods allowed in Street Prepared too far; I'd call most of the SP cars we have now Prepared.... But that's a whole other can of worms to address, in a different thread...

[paultg]

Certainly don't disagree either Brendan. Definitely submit something that might clear it up, it's worth a shot. - Paul G.

[chaos4NH]

AH! The slippery slope continues! STREET Performance folks. Ya gotta have what is required for STREET use. A lot of folks are bending the rules (not just in SP classes, either. ST is also becoming a joke).

[Stynger]

STREET Performance folks. Ya gotta have what is required for STREET use.

I agree!

Pretty sure I could get an inspection sticker without a stock dash. Maybe just a gauge pod.

The way I see it, many cars on the street are highly customized and STREET legal, but somehow some people seem to think that is not the intent of SP rules.

BTW, intent is not written in the rules.

No dog in this fight (I run PC). Just sick of the rules made 20-30 years ago dictating 2012 culture and technology.

I'd be willing to help out setting up a points system. Unfortunately some don't like change and want to stay in the coal and steam era. It would not be worth the considerable time and effort just to get shot down.

Carry on...

[brucesallen]

Les,
Are you gonna write the rules for the electric cars?

Steam cars would be great!

[DanDarcy]

Don't forget the "Turbine" car

Les; I'm sure if yo want to work on a point system, the BOD would go along and help you. A few years ago a couple of members were going to work on a point system but nothing materialized from it. Maybe time to try again.