BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

[breakaway500]

I asked David Thibodeau (registrar) of the WMC BMWCCA if I could run my Atom at one of their NHMS events and was told NO,it's an open wheel car.. Ok..fine... that argument again. It's registered.It's NOT a formula race car.It's a street car.It really is. Most owners drive them on the street,period. I choose to track mine,and just have the fenders off it,and it has inboard suspension..and wings..and wide tires..like..an Indy car! . Such is my Atoms curse...to look like a formula car. So,bring another car; I was then told "the Miata would need a full roll cage and full harnesses/restraints for driver/passenger"....so that sounds like no solo,either,and I don't have the car set up for two.Full roll cage? I did list my experience with COM (and my COM competition license) the 20 or so days I have been to NHMS..and SVTOA events and NEQ and SCMC events.. etc etc...Nope.
Oh well.. It was going to be convenient as their track day is the day after the open track day at NHMS,so I could have made it a two day event and stayed up there.
I did run with them once before (with the Focus) and got a good review,but they sure seem to be extra cautious... I think they have tough rules about spinning too..something like three times and you're out..??
Ahh..I'm probably better off not running with them,and they're better off without me. Maybe I'm blackballed....

I did get this back.. "Every student had to run at least one run group with an instructor per our insurance.We sometimes can find another car for you to drive for that one run or we can sometimes trail you. I am copying our driving event chair on this message."

I don't really want to use the Miata anyway. Guess I'm expecting too much to ask them to consider the Atom..but it would be interesting to know if it is their insurance that says no open wheels or their clubs policy. Is it for safety? Are they worried about people flipping off my tires? Are "open wheel" cars too fast,or extra dangerous?? How about a Can-Am car? That would be OK?

[jeffw]

That's interesting. Until recently, WMC BMW allowed most convertibles newer than a certain year, assuming an instructor would get in with you...

[timmmy]

I run and instruct with BMW WMC, but I cannot use my miata, een though its fine for COM. For any convertible (or car without a roof) they are mandated by BMW national to require A) a full cage and B) a hardtop. I dont know why BMW national require this, however they are very firm about it.

They are a good group and have some good driers and instructors, just dont bring a car with no roof. Thankfully my Audi will be ready soon so that solves that problem

H

[brucesallen]

BMW National has too many lawyers. I used to run my Formula car (as an instructor) and a couple of years ago it was banned. they still have allowed my "Lotary 7" with no front fenders (and it would be street legal in NH under its Street Rod registration with no fenders at all). Also, their lawyers say ALL students must have an instructor for at least one session so they can claim to be a school. That creates a great burden on the instructors who have 3 or 4 students in a day. Bottom line is I don't instruct for them any more. I may instruct more for SCDA. SCDA is very expensive if you must pay.

[agrabau]

3 spins and you should be out! Jesus it's not ice racing. Anyway BMW has always been uptight. It's a driver's school not an open track day. I think that most of the COM guys are a little experienced for it. Just my impression though.. probably a big speed differential between an Atom and a 325i with a first timer behind the wheel.

[breakaway500]

I have spun twice in one event,almost three times.When you go out for every session and then open track for hours,chances are you will spin more often,especially if you are trying new lines,new tires,new suspension etc etc...if I have to worry about my track time being over because I spin,I will not push my limits and will never learn to be a better driver.I'm not being reckless,just extending my comfort zones.. BMW has an option (for group 1 and instructors) to allow passing anywhere on track,without a point by! That is a little more than just a driving school policy,so why fear an Atom (or an open wheel car) or a Miata/convertible without a full roll cage? I really don't understand how any club can justify eliminating any 4 wheel vehicles from an event,as long as they are not dangerous to others. Blame it on insurance..whatever..other clubs seem to have no problem finding the appropriate coverage to allow such vehicles to participate. Maybe that is one of the reasons they don't fill up their events?
I should not be out with a first timer,and if so,why the fuss? There is no problem at COM with me being out with slower traffic.The last event in November,I was out with the slowest car on track and there weren't any issues. Matter of fact,it was nice.The slower cars did not have to lift,and I could pass quickly and be on my way.I don't have a lot of HP compared to many cars,and getting around the high hp cars requires them to lift on the straights (seeing as we don't pass in corners) It takes a few laps dogging some cars to get them to let you pass. Hopefully,this year I should have the HP to pass the big boys without them having to lift..too much..

[TroyV]

I wouldn't worry about it Mark.. There are plenty of other orgs out there that you can run with. The amount of potential liability a national club carries can be astronomical as I'm sure White Mountain as all the other BMWCCA chapters are under a national insurance policy. As the sole carrier of the liability for NE-SVT, there are very certain things I have put into effect at Devens events based on personal experiences, and things others have witnessed at the venue. Some may find those things unreasonable. It is a lot of responsibility to carry, and I don't take it lightly at all.

Now take that and add thousands more members, hundreds more events, 50 states etc.

[jlwhorf]

BMW has an option (for group 1 and instructors) to allow passing anywhere on track,without a point by!

Mark, the policy is pass anywhere with a point by. I ran with BMW for several years, and even twice with the stockcar. It is ashame that they are getting so strict because they are a nice group to run with, they are one of the most affordable, and usually give quite a bit of track time.

[breakaway500]

I'm not worried,Troy..just dissappointed.I firmly don't believe any car should be turned away from a track event just because it is thought to be "dangerous" or "uninsurable". It's kind of like a gun club telling members that an M-16 is more dangerous than an AR-15 semi-auto variation of the same weapon,and not allowing the use of those fully automatic firearms at their range,even if the said weapon is only used in semi-auto mode. It just strikes me as hypocritical for a car organization (especially BMW..) to disallow certain street cars at a track event,unless their goal is to only allow their own mark.Then,I can understand the reasoning behind the decision. I am sure they could get coverage that would allow any form of 4 wheel track vehicle..but I suppose it is just easier and cheaper to ban specific designs and be done with it. Just does not sit well with me,that's all.
What if COM and all the other clubs banned "open wheel" cars and convertibles without full roll cages? It would make it pretty damn hard for the owners of such cars to ever practice driving. You certainly can't on public roads..so where does that leave you? Learn to drive at sanctioned racing events?
Or,just when a track has an open test day? (Which many don't have..)
I don't like the precedent that BMW creates when they disallow certain street driven cars at their track events,just because it is not allowed by their insurance.
How about motorcycle organizations? They don't seem to have any problems with insurance for track events,and even the least protective car is generally safer than a bike for personal safety.
Jonathan,guess I missed the "with a point by" part of that option...but still...pass anywhere on track is quite..racy of them!

Just seems like a cop out on BMW's part. Don't they tout themselves as the "Ultimate driving machine"? I guess that only means on the street only,if you happen to drive a convertible Beemer.

[91rs13]

Please do not Broad brush all BMW Chapters based on one experience with a chapter. I have seen many different levels of experience running with different chapters. Some "advanced" drivers would really scare you. BMWCCA has minimum standards for the chapters to follow --the events do vary from chapter to chapter.

Convertibles -- Big topic in BMWCCA right now. Minimum standard ( BMWCCA National) require a Roll bar --not pop ups, but an SCCA type roll bar. Many northeast chapters require a full cage. In my chapter this is based on feedback from instructors not feeling safe in a non cage equipped convertible. There are many Z3 and Z4 owners who are feeling alienated and the topic was discussed in great detail at the last Driving events congress in Dallas ( especially the retractable hard tops) --Targa type tops need a roll bar.

Open wheel cars / Atom etc. --Open wheel cars are not allowed. My interpretation of the Atom is it would meet a "roll bar" rule but not the " full cage" rules that many chapters have. ( Patroon discussed it several years back)

BMW Events are driving schools not open track. Many chapters have experimented with different interpretations of this. My chapter ( Patroon ) has allowed certain highly advanced drivers to run with the instructors at WGI in an "open track" type group --but point bys are still needed or at least highly encouraged. Boston, White Mountain and GVC have been experimenting with the open passing anywhere ( Patroon is waiting and looking at their results)
BMWCCA National requires instruction. At the last Driving events congress it was clarified to be "in car " instruction. So Even advanced students need to be signed off by an instructor before being allowed to drive solo.

Timing and Data Acqusition.
Data Acquisition is now allowed in BMWCCA --but no in car displays are allowed. But trackside beams are discouraged unless the event takes place with a club race.

[breakaway500]

My entire car is a cage that I sit in. How many more monkey bars do I need to add to make it a "full" cage??

My point is,if you are going to have a driving event at a race track..why all the restrictions? Sure,have instructors in novice classes and anyone requesting an instructor,but why no solo for drivers with competition licenses? Oh yea..insurance regulations..
Next thing you know,they will be posting speed limits for each run group.
Patroon is no different than White mountain..no Atom allowed.
I'm not doing the painting...just pointing out wrong colors as I see them...

Not a big deal..I just won't attend any BMW events. I guess I'll do my ultimate driving with other clubs..

[91rs13]

In the narrow case of the Atom or convertibles Patroon is no different. However All Chapters run their events differently and there are differnces.

[breakaway500]

Same problem with the same colors. Discriminatory. Why not get insurance that allows convertibles? Then,there would be no complaints from actual BMW convertible owners? It seems so simple to me. I have to deal with insurance companies all the time,and they will push you around as much as you let them. How come other car organizations have no problems with convertibles and insurance??

[91rs13]

I know from your posts you just like a good debate, but I actually agree with you.

However Insurance rates are only part of it. Instructors are not comfortable without the roll cages, and without them--no event.
( keep in mind BMWCCA is focused on instruction not open track or lapping days)

I think you will see them eventually in CCA events.

[breakaway500]

The first "instructor" that I had with BMWCCA (at NHMS) refused to ride with me again after our first session,and he bailed out of my car (the Focus)like it was on fire. He said I scared him,bad. Truth. My day would have been done..but luckily,another instructor (Gordon Geick) hopped in my car and we had a great time the rest of the event.He had no idea what the first guys problem was with me.Later that day the first "instructor" had an incident on track with his car....and I got to black flag him.
Maybe BMW should screen/choose their instructors more wisely??