Rule Proposal: Harnesses

[WillM]

I have submitted a rule which would update COMSCC's harness requirements. Though I did not keep a copy of my suggestion, the goal of the rule was to simply state harness requirements via certification.

The current rules specify the number of belts required, how they are to be installed, etc.

I have proposed that we simply specify that belts must meet either SFI or FIA certification, and are installed per the manufacturers instructions. I included some wording that would allow us to keep the current harness installation specs (as in the current COMSCC Rulebook) and use them as general guidelines in the event that the manufacturer does not include installation specs.

I see this as similar to our helmet requirements. We say that helmets must meet M2000 specs or better. We do not get into how the helmets are configured, fit, etc. Similar to the Snell Foundation, I believe that the SFI and FIA are better suited to tell our people how their equipment should be used.

[offcamber09]

Thanks, Will. Although I do support efforts to promote safety, I for one, have been one who uses my outdated SCCA harnesses in my COM car. I have never been presented with a compelling enough argument that would convince me that they magically become unsafe after 3 years of exposure to sunlight, water, sweat and the Earth's environment. I know I am opening the door to the counter argument here- and that's a good thing. I don't go into this sport with my head buried in the sand, but I do try to do it on a safe budget. I don't have the proverbial .05 helmet, I did spend $600 on a firesuit and I do have a Hans Device.

[turtlevette]

Thanks, Will. Although I do support efforts to promote safety, I for one, have been one who uses my outdated SCCA harnesses in my COM car. I have never been presented with a compelling enough argument that would convince me that they magically become unsafe after 3 years of exposure to sunlight, water, sweat and the Earth's environment. I know I am opening the door to the counter argument here- and that's a good thing. I don't go into this sport with my head buried in the sand, but I do try to do it on a safe budget. I don't have the proverbial .05 helmet, I did spend $600 on a firesuit and I do have a Hans Device.

i use a 5 pt harness even though its not required in my class. I guess when it expires, i'll just put the 30 year old lap belts back in. I'm sure that will be much safer.

[WillM]

Hi Scott. Thanks for the feedback, discussion is important. I posted up these two rules because someone in another thread thought it would be a good idea to get these discussions out into the open - I agree!

I was honestly not even considering expiration dates when I penned the rule. I wrote the rule after reading through the current harness rules. The current rules say that:

• Lap harnesses must be a minimum of 3" wide
• Shoulder harnesses must be a minimum of 2" wide
• Y shoulder harnesses are only allowed in SS
• Shoulder harnesses must be anchored within a certain degree
• Shoulder harnesses must be anchored individually
• In Prepared classes, harnesses must be "approved" (what does that even mean?)

What is any of the above based on? Why do we have these requirements?

My guess would be that these requirements are all taken from either another club's requirements, SFI or FIA requirements, or products that were available when the rules were adopted into the COM rulebook.

I say we let the experts at SFI or FIA determine what is acceptable, and let the manufacturers dictate how their products are installed.

As for cost, I have never had a set of harnesses re-webbed, but it is my understanding that several manufacturers will re-web for $50.

[JackFFR1846]

I guess my question would be....what approvials would be required? SFI? What level? FIA? Some others that I don't know about?

If we are to adopt a rule, we really have to specifiy it.

I personally like the rule as it is. I run my prepared car with a setup that was legal in SCCA IT racing and in my ssc car, I run the stock belt or if I remember, add a 3" lap belt to the stock belt.

I don't know that the tech inspectors really have the time to make it a priority to be looking for the tag telling them what the belts are. I know that my student at LRP this past weekend got tech'd and had a 5 point driver side and not on the pass side. I opted to have both of us use the stock 3 points to make my restraint equal to his.

jack

[Stynger]

Other clubs are already requiring date checks on harnesses.
SFI is 2 years, FIA is 5. It's marked right on the belt.
I personally would like to get a couple more years out of my belts.
Maybe I'm fooling myself. I use a HANS, suite, socks etc. I should keep my belts up to spec.

What about suits? Do we need specs for those?

Looks like a slippery slope.

As far as equal equipment for driver and instructor.
This year I got to see it first hand. Crappie passenger seat, crappie belts, no mirror etc.
This rule should be enforced before a student gets to the track. Maybe a part of student registration outlining their responsibilities before arriving to an event. If tech doesn't catch it, the instructor will.
If the car fails, send them home, no refund. Let them know at pre registration, no excuses.

[Mark Swinehart]

Lester -

Do you mean something like this?

"Instructors and passengers of Instructors seat belt restraint system during driver schools and practice shall be of equal or greater restraint capability, as compared to the drivers seat belt restraint system, including type, width, and number of points. This is to ensure that the Instructor is not subjected to aggressive driving that the driver would be willing subject himself to, based on the level of driver seat belt restraint.

Novices and other students not yet licensed by COM must train in a vehicle possessing a minimum of two seats and safety equipment for both seats appropriate to the class, of which one seat is to be occupied by an approved instructor."

[Stynger]

Let me guess, this is the info given.

[dreeves]

Thanks, Will. Although I do support efforts to promote safety, I for one, have been one who uses my outdated SCCA harnesses in my COM car. I have never been presented with a compelling enough argument that would convince me that they magically become unsafe after 3 years of exposure to sunlight, water, sweat and the Earth's environment. I know I am opening the door to the counter argument here- and that's a good thing. I don't go into this sport with my head buried in the sand, but I do try to do it on a safe budget. I don't have the proverbial .05 helmet, I did spend $600 on a firesuit and I do have a Hans Device.

Scott,

None of us here are really safety experts. Given that every racing sanctioning body I can think of adheres to expiration dates for helmets and harnesses, I think the burden is really more on you to present a compelling argument that COM *shouldn't* apply the same rules.

I think it's a good idea.

dave

[offcamber09]

None of us here are really safety experts. Given that every racing sanctioning body I can think of adheres to expiration dates for helmets and harnesses, I think the burden is really more on you to present a compelling argument that COM *shouldn't* apply the same rules.

I think it's a good idea.

dave

In the end it may be a good idea but:

First, the burden of making a compelling argument to change an existing rule is on the party interested in changing it. If they are successful, then we are all better off for it. The current rule has been in effect for more than the 10+ years that I have been a COM member.

I think it is interesting that the SFI Foundation is funded by the equipment manufacturers.

SFI claims that the Dupont Nylon that most belts are webbed with has only 50% of it's original strength after 1 year of "outdoor exposure"! After 2 years it's down to 20% and thereafter presumably it has the strength of wet toilet paper. If this is true, then I withdraw my argument. I have my doubts.

[WillM]

Below is the current rule, with my comments in bold.

I believe the current rule is difficult to police (particularly in P), unnecessarily complicated, and out-dated. As Scott mentioned, the rule was written 10+ years ago.

VI. CAR REQUIREMENTS
F. Vehicle Interior
2. Cars must have well mounted, metal-to-metal, quick release lap safety belt AND upper body restraint in good condition.
This is clear, makes sense, and to the point.

A five point harness consisting of, minimum 3" wide lap belts and minimum 2" wide shoulder harnesses, are required in Prepared and Street Prepared cars (For more detail refer to Street Prepared and Prepared rules) and are strongly recommended for Showroom Stock and Street Touring cars.
This is clear, but flawed. Why do we specify 3" lap belts and 2" shoulder belts? If anything, we should specify the reverse - 3" shoulders & 2" lap belts, and allow 2" shoulder belts with the use of HANS devices.

Also, the rule refers to more info in the Street Prepared and Prepared rules. There is NO mention of harnesses in the Street Prepared rule section.

The Prepared rule set states that an "approved" harness must be used. Approved by who? The SFI? FIA? Competitors? Stewards?
This is perhaps the most vague rule in the book.

"Y"-type shoulder harnesses are permitted in Showroom Stock.
Why?

Shoulder harnesses may not be mounted to the package shelf under the rear window and each side of the shoulder harness shall have a separate mounting point.
Why?

The shoulder harness should be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of forty (40) degrees with the horizontal.
Why? For the matter, both the SFI and 2007 SCCA GCR indicate that the angle should be LESS than 20 degrees.

For more information on driver restraints, consult the SCCA GCR.
What does this even mean? What part of the GCR? What class? Which year / edition? Why do COM members have to refer to SCCA rules?

I would propose replacing the current VI.F.2 section (as stated below) and removing all other references to harnesses in the rulebook. In classes where we currently require harnesses, I've proposed that the harnesses meet either current SFI or FIA certification.

VI. CAR REQUIREMENTS
F. Vehicle Interior
2. Cars must have well mounted, metal-to-metal, quick release lap safety belt AND upper body restraint in good condition. Showroom Stock and Street Touring cars may use aftermarket harnesses which include at a minimum:

• 4 points (two shoulder belts, 2 lap belts)
• 2" lap belts
• 2" shoulder belts

All harnesses must be installed to the manufacturer's specification.

Street Prepared and Prepared cars must use harnesses which meet all of the following criteria:

• 5 points or greater (two shoulder belts, 2 lap belts, one or more anti-submarine belts)
• 2" lap belts
• 2" shoulder belts
• Current SFI or FIA certification
• Installed to manufacturer's specification

Thoughts?

Woo-hoo! Patriots win! I can go to sleep now...

[boltonite]

Argh! I set the Tivo in the 4th quarter and go to bed so I can watch the last 12 minutes in the morning... I get up and check my email, check the COMSCC forum, turn on the Tivo read this thread, yep, yep, yep, OMG! You spilled the beans on the game! Man, you are really on a roll -- at least you didn't delete my forum account, I guess I should count my blessings

In any case, I agree that the rule section re harnesses is weak and would be improved by the above rewrite. The verbiage regarding "mounted to manufacturer's specification" might mention the use of load-spreading washers and min grade 5 hardware since their use is common to all belts and w/o them they are worse than factory restraints (esp lap belts mounted to the floor pan). People who buy used belts (w/o the mounting hardware) should know what is required.
FF

[StephanAlfa]

Great info Fred!
FYI for those who are not aware of what grade 5 means, this is the metal grade so please don't go to your local "home depot" thinking you are going to find this. It has better hardening and rust resistance. Please invest in those for your safety's sake.
Grade 9 - for example - it aviation type hardware (nuts, bolts and fasteners) - those used on Segway PT for example.

[WillM]

Thanks for the input and suggestions Fred, and sorry about spilling the beans.

Stephan, Grade 5 hardware is very easy to find at Home Depot, Lowes, Hardware stores, etc. In fact, you can even find Grade 8 at the same stores relatively easily, in both standard and metric thread. I use Grade 8 when mounting harnesses & seats, with sturdy backing plates or large washers, as Fred mentioned. :thumbleft:

[kfoote]

"Y"-type shoulder harnesses are permitted in Showroom Stock.
Why?

Because a Y-type harness is safer than the factory 3 point harness, and in SS harnesses aren't required.

Shoulder harnesses may not be mounted to the package shelf under the rear window and each side of the shoulder harness shall have a separate mounting point.
Why?

A) in most cars, the package shelf of sheet metal referenced is very thin and not structurally sound. Harnesses don't do much if the mounts move or break.
B) spreading out the load is good.