hill climb

[962porsche]

did any one see the crash at pikes peak this week end ? and they walked away !

[Mark Swinehart]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2106&start=435

[962porsche]

sorry i did not read the funny motorsports posting about it .
i saw the interview with the driver and codriver in TV today and the race this past weekend was also on tv .

[breakaway500]

.."and the race this past weekend was also on tv" What channel had coverage? Al I could find to view the race was to subscribe ($$) to the Pikes Peak official site coverage,which meant watching on my pc..which I hate for long events.

[962porsche]

my wife has tv on the 52" flat screen that goes thru the PC .kim's (the wife) brother hooked it all up so we can switch from satellite tv to PC tv it's freeking great . there are all types of sporting events we watch on it . the kids like it because of the horse shows and programing about QTR horses and some program about flying . we got the kids a two seater quicksilver ultralight two years ago that they fly out of the field .
my self i like it because they show all types of grassroots type racing and even things like the BTCC , FIA rallying , hill climbs . it was like 200 dollars for the crap we needed to have it hooked up to the big screen it was worth every penny .

[Stynger]

Check out this forum/blog. Towards the end, the author tells it how it was (safety wise) at this years Pikes Peak.

He pulls no punches.

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/forumi ... cope/posts

[breakaway500]

Some excerpts:

"Imagine that... You go to a race and so many people get hurt you can't even keep track of all the names. 
 
And we haven't even covered the spectator safety issues. Take another look at Dallenbach's crash. He cut massive trees down with his car. It's amazing that no one was hit. The outside of the corner was lined with people watching the race. My friends told me horror stories of people lying down and sleeping on the outside of corners only a few feet from the road


I can honestly say that this road and this event is the most dangerous sanctioned race in the world (on par or worse than the Isle of Man TT Race). It has 156 turns, almost all of them without guardrails, and if you screw up you are going into trees or over a cliff. If you make even a small mistake, or say if you drive over a freakin' GoPro camera that some d-bag spectator puts in the road "for a cool shot" and get a blow-out (which happened to the Dacia team this year! Picture above from practice), you are in for a potentially very bad crash that could end in death or severe injury for you and spectators. The 12.4 mile long race course also starts at 9390 feet and goes up to 14,110 feet of elevation, so there's barely any air to breathe for the drivers or to cool the cars.


This 5th gen Camaro had a supercharged engine, some blingy 20" wheels and a wrap, but was almost a totally stock street car. Remember: This car passed PIHC tech, checked off as "safe" to drive up the most dangerous hill climb in the world. This is the 2nd year it has entered and run PPIHC. What is wrong with this picture????



That wiggle in the down bar is bad enough, as is the bolt-in nature of the cage, but the front down bar doesn't even go to the floor! It also has little dune buggy seats. The PPIHC tech folks looked at this, two years in a row, and said, yes, this cage is good enough to withstand a potential crash like the EvoD car encountered. Riiiiiiight....
As many have reported there were too many crashes at this event; I've heard that this event had more than ever before. After driving up and down the mountain a couple of times, once in the rain, I can see why. Personally, I now have zero aspirations to ever drive this course in anger. You have to be a little nuts to race up this mountain. ZERO room for error - you go off, you are probably going to go tumbling down the mountain or blasting through the trees like Dallenbach.

While I have respect for anyone that races at Pikes Peak... I still think they are all bat shit crazy. Nice folks, but just a bit nuts. This event was by far the most dangerous thing I've ever seen. As harsh as I have been in my critique here, I do respect hill climbs, as this sport involves the short term intensity of autocross with the biggest dangers in all of motorsports, rally. It is a unique type of event and Pikes Peak is unique among hill climbs. Yes, mistakes were made, but they can be fixed. The number one issue still lies in the number of entrants they allowed to run the course on race day. 170 drivers (the entire amount left of the 211 that signed up) took to the mountain, which was about 50% too many. This was after qualifying had whittled the field down to 100 entrants. At the last minute the event organizers caved to political pressure from many entrants (possibly rightfully so) and changed their stance Saturday morning at 8am to allow all entrants to race, two hours before a protest hearing. This allowed too many entrants to fit in the allotted race period and allowed some entrants that honestly were not qualified to race on this mountain. One of the Unlimited class drivers had never done any sort of competition driving... not even an autocross. Nothing. Crashed twice in practice, banged up his co-driver, and was still allowed to race. These things don't need to happen."

Yikes...

[962porsche]

mark like you said this race is like the isle of man events in many ways . on the isle of man even on non race events there are on speed limits once your out of the towns on the island . so any day you want you can go as fast as you want . there are many reason why the isle of man events will never get closed /cancelled and i don't ever think they should be .
as for the pikes peak events and many other hill climb events part of doing them is the fact that they are as dangerous . by all means yes cars should be built as safe as they can be for any type of racing . but if some one passes a cage like the one you posted thru tech who it or should it be up to to make sure the cage is safe ?
i for one would not even want a cage in my car like that one just driving on the street . now in comscc cages are not inspected at all . there are no inspection holes drilled to check the wall thickness but we have rules on how to and what to build our cages out of . i even put up a post asking some things about cages in the forums about it and not one reply ! and yet some cars and in some classes we have to have cages . so on one of the cars i'm building right now because i know the cage i need to run in that class will never get teched could i just build it out of 18 gage exhaust tubing ? it will save 2/3's of the weight and who would know once it's painted just what tubing i used .
when your talking about grassroots type events and the sad thing thats what pikes peak is many things are open to the car builder and just how safe they really want to be . in the PPIHM rules pages 28 to 31 it states just how to and what to build cages out of and the way they are to be built . but like many grassroots clubs no one looks at them .

[n1gzd]

regarding COM guidance on rollbar and cage construction. When I have inquired previously I was told to use SCCA specifications (which is also what the vintage club that I belong to does). It seems that SCCA is the defacto standard. You are right about COM not drilling holes and checking things. However, one would hope that your desire to survive would be incentive enough to try and follow the specification (rather than trying to get away with something less if nobody notices at tech).
Rebecca

[962porsche]

being a chassis and roll cage builder and a scrutineer with comscc and other clubs as well i am all to aware of not just com rules but all rules of what and how cages should be built . but never the less what is to stop people from building a cage like i stated if there not teched ? yes you would hope to hell the person would want a proper cage built . but the bottom line and sad truth is that many things not just cages get over looked for safety . the rules state you have to have a petty bar if your not useing a passanger seat . makes sence right but to save weight you can remove the passanger seat and put in just about any seat you want . the reason for that rule is a seat will in fact help hole up the roof to some point . but people run low back seats made of fiberglass and plastic kind of makes that rule point less . right ? when you leave things up to the driver or car owner to things like that many bad things can become of it .
now as a scrutineer i have seen many poorly built things in car i would not run but have had to pass the car for reasons . things like hans the belts have to be no more than 3" apart on the harness bars . there is nothing in the rules stating that if your using hans you need to do that . the down side because of that is if your belt slips off the hans you can then come out of the belts .
i have a list of 19 things like that but it is totaly point less to ask about them when one one even replyed to my posting about some like teching the roll cages . so the bottom line is when you leave things up to the driver and or car owner any thing could and many happen .

[breakaway500]

Dave, I only took some excerpts from the link that Les posted. Those aren't my words..but most of what in in that article I agree with,based on the authors observations.
It sounds like this years PP race was an accident waiting to happen.Very little practice time,many rookies,and little to no racing credentials required to drive up a course with minimal or zero safety barriers.The price of error could very well be your life. I also believe those same threats are what draw many veteran participants back to the Peak. (and other hillclimbs... )
The problem with rules and regulations concerning cages (and other safety equipment) is some feel they are written overly cautious and are too burdensome...and only use them as general guidelines,and if they feel they can "get away" with a few shortcuts...so be it,especially if they feel they won't be caught...
I don't see how a tech inspector would Ok the Camaro cage pictured above..(2yrs in a row) but I also don't know exactly what the requirements were for that participants class. Maybe a cage was optional in the class they were running? There seems to have been a lot of confusion..
It would be too time prohibitive to check every tube on every car in a race day tech line for proper diameter,thickness,construction and integrity. Race day Tech teams can only do their best with what little time they have,and hope that participants care about their own safety and others not to "cheat".
The proper way to tech would require everything be certified prior to an event,and many race sanctioning bodies do this. However,many clubs and special events don't, due to cost and time constraints. I guess it will take some real carnage to have them police their safety policies a little closer.
I can't imagine a motorcycle rider going off at that same corner...

[962porsche]

that cage is a total joke! i can't beleave they passed it . in the rules for pikes peak they must have a proper cage in all classes and of a wall thickness for the weight of the car . when i build cages and tech for other clubs i pick two places were i want a hole drilled to test the wall thickness . then the cage gets signed off with a stick put on the cage . you only have to do it once and then check for a up to date sticker when it's going thru tech . if the car get hit were the cage or section of the cage has to get replaced then you have to have the cage tech again and then again the scrutineer picks the place were a hole is to be drilled for the wall thickness testing . then again a new tech sticker get put on the cage again also . it's as fast an ez as checking a helmet to make sure it's up to date along with safety belts . that way you don't have to check the cage persay every event just look for a sticker . it's how its done in all other forms of racing . if comscc states you need a roll bar or cage then i really think it should be also teched . you can see that a well built and safe cage will protect your ass even when you drive your car off a cliff .
in comscc when people change there seats to racing seats they are also not checked to be sure they were in stalled the right way . also belts are not checked when people install 5 and 6 point ones . i have seen were people will just mount there anti submarine belt with just a little washer on the under side of the floor when it should be plated .
as a club if you make a rule and let people install non stock safety gear then i really think it's up to comscc scrutineers / tech people to have to check the things too . you only have to inspect it once and then put a inspection sticker on it .

[horizenjob]

The spectators were really bothering me in those Pikes peak vids. It's just not fair to the drivers for the spectators to put themselves at such risk. Who would want to live with a small mistake that happens to take out a few people. You can feel as tough as you want about it, but i'll bet the crunch noises and bumps going over them sticks with you. If you get back on the road the bodies will slow you down too.

It's a weird problem. I did the SCCA hillclimb in Reading PA in years ago. I had done a couple of runs but my first times run I come flying around a blind corner and there was a policeman standing IN FRONT of the guardrail. The police didn't seem to really like this event and this guy thought he'd display a little autority or something, I have no idea. I had much less then a heartbeat to think about this. A twitch to the left, away from him, would likely have put me directly into him or possibly the leading edge of the guardrail. Honestly I was enraged. So I decided to brush him back. Instead of twitching left, I eased ever so slightly and allowed my self to use an extra foot, maybe 2 feet of road. I'll bet my FF missed him by a whole 2 feet and going darn close to max cornering speed.

I am happy to report he was behind the guard rail for the rest of the event, and a good bit safer for it.

I don't know how you qualify drivers for these events. The fact that someone is a rookie doesn't mean they are a hazard. Likely less so.

I was wondering about the oxygen. Especially for folks that live near sea level.

Those drops look scary, but in hillclimbs here in New England and in Pennsylvania there's a lot of granite, oak and maple. When your car leaves the road it is likely to stop very soon and very quickly.

My first hillclimb at Mt. Ascutney a fellow left the road and managed to wedge his Opal into a tree a pretty considerable distance above the ground. They left it there for the rest of the weekend, sort of as a reminder. I picture it upside down in the tree but that might be wrong..

[962porsche]

when it comes to spectators at events like rally's , off road event's , hill climbs yes they will stand right in the racing line . as a driver you just have to hope they move . it's just the way it is . i raced off doad events for many years and only one person ever was hert . they fell out of a tree that was over the race course trying to take a photo and got hit by the car they were trying to take a photo of . when i was racing motorcycles in the GNCC it was the same way too . in some of the GNCC events spectators would drag logs and rocks out into the trail just so they could watch you ride over them . it is just the way the events are you can't police every foot of the course .

most hill climbs do not run on mountains that go higher than tree lines . the climb to the clouds is the only other one that really does . there to once your higher than the tree line there are many places were if you have a off you have a long way down before you stop . if you ever wanted to try a hill climb that was a good event to do . the down side is that it keeps changing . they stopped racing new er cars some years ago and it was a vintage event then they went back to newer car and as far as i know it's not being held again this year .

[breakaway500]

"most hill climbs do not run on mountains that go higher than tree lines" Pikes Peak does...watch the video. PP is 14k feet high.. Mt.Washington is 6k feet.
Maybe they should allow participants to arm their cars with anti-spectator/debris missiles...