Point By rules

[agrabau]

I'd like to bring this up in hopes that drivers might be able to organize rules for their own run groups. I move to end point by requirements in pre-established passing zones as a matter of safety and practice lap consistency.

My reasons are as follows-



1) I can't give a proper point by with a securely mounted window net (required in P classes) I can't reach out my window. If I could I wouldn't want to because: I don't want to have my arm out of the car and it defies the very reason for windows/restraints/nets.


2) I often do NHMS and it's crowded. It's virtually impossible to get a single clean lap regardless of start position and pit-in strategy. There are too many people. As a result I am not able to practice a consistent set of laps for the time trial.

My hope was that, in my run group (for example) we could pre-agree on safe passing zones and exercise judgment based on experience to pass when safe. Cars in many groups are driven by experienced racers. If drivers can't handle being passed on the track they shouldn't be driving on the road when the lines become broken lines. It's the same thing. If that logic doesn't follow perhaps the requirements for a time trial license should be reconsidered.


Thanks for reading, that's my case for ending point by on a case-per case basis.

Alex Grabau

[breakaway500]

I am also in PB class and have no problems pointing by. Most wanting to pass know where to look for a point by,and a finger out the window in front of the net usually suffices.Sometimes I move a bit to one side as well.Not off my line very much,but just to show I know you are passing.

Yes,it is very difficult to point by to the rh side of the car;however,at NHMS,the only straight I may want to point someone to the rh side of my car (and stay on line)would be 4-5-6.

I like the inside rh line there and point by to the left,so no problem.

When you pass on public roads,you have rules,and only pass on the left,using directionals to signal intent,or you have two or more lanes of travel(highways);not the same thing.

I am new to the club,but I have no problem with the point by system,and it seems to work well from what I have seen so far.

That being said,if point bys were not required for specific run groups,I would not be opposed to the idea,but you will still have to point by during open track time.It may cause some confusion.

Another reason away events are so much fun; lots of clear track time

[betelgeuse]

I agree it's tough to get a clear lap. I only got 4 or 5 the whole weekend.

I also agree with the point by rule. I think there would be a lot more spins and crashes without it. Resulting in more red and black flags. The second practice on Sunday I only got 4 laps total due to a red, black flag.

My biggest problem with the PB rule isn't the rule itself, its some of the drivers. They point you buy then stand on it. Us low horsepower guys have no chance of making the pass.

Overall I think the PB rule is a good thing. I do wish they would allow passing between 10 and 11.

Just my .02 cents

Greg

[rajito]

Dear Cracker Alex,

Regarding issue #2 - what I usually do is enter the front straight at 35mph, then weave back and forth at that speed and block traffic until turn 1, which usually gives me enough room for 3 or 4 hot laps.

Best regards,
Raj

[91rs13]

Having run with another northeast Time trial club that does not require pointbys, but encourages them ---I have to disagree with you Alex. It can be very dangerous if you see the pass in front of you, but the driver of the car in front of you is not aware of you or the pass you are going to make.

I have had that car in front of me drop in front of me while making a pass. In later conversation he told me he did not expect me to pass on his right in that situation (where he left an opening)

With a point by --you know the driver ahead of you is aware of you and expects you to pass.

Like your car by the way.

[agrabau]

I guess that for the most part, members don't agree with my sentiment.

Raj, other members have employed your methods with good success.


I have tried every method of waiting, queueing and nothing has been effective. It's probably a product of NHMS.

[chaos4NH]

I guess that for the most part, members don't agree with my sentiment.

Raj, other members have employed your methods with good success.


I have tried every method of waiting, queueing and nothing has been effective. It's probably a product of NHMS.

I think that is a good conclusion: It is a product of NHMS.
Lap time differentials from class to class, power to power, straight away speed to straight away speed are much closer than on the tracks where we can "stretch out" our machines. In addition, 28-32 cars on a 1.6 mile circuit is the final blow to "open" track.

[lou m]

Hi Alex,

In the past I have gone to grid 10 minutes early. Then you are the first in line. That's the best chance for some clean laps unless the group is excessively large or there are stragerlers.

Open track at NHMS is the place to be for lots of "open track".
When I go, it feels good too. Just like some other HPDE clubs out there. "How fast did you go? Really, really fast".

[StephanAlfa]

Hi Alex;
I too am on the side who (respectfully) disagree with your suggestion. Note we have finally made excellent strides in the relation with NHMS, simply excellent.
Last thing we need is someone taking this assumption a notch further and try to pass at the breaking zone of turn 1 while one dive down and the other comes from the top and you'll have a mess in your hands.
I'd go with Lou's suggestion or pit. If a driver is blatantly not letting you pass after getting visible blue flags on the track, then let's have a chat with them or notify control.
Note this is all in the interest of safety. We are truly provileged we are doing this (as opposed to HPDE :sign11: ) so lets make it an enjoyable and safe experience.

Failing this we'll install Le Mans style headlights and blink like hell on the straights

[tju-vette]

I would hate to see the point by rule go away, I think it's just too dicey to do from a safety standpoint. Even with the pb rule I've had some people dive on me quite strangely into T1 and T3.

I agree that there is a limited amount of true "open track" @ NHMS but don't believe that alone is enough of a reason to change or eliminate the pb rule.

I also agree with Stephan's statement about coming in to pit lane and telling control if someone is purposely holding you up ("pit & snitch?")

[agrabau]

While I understand everyone's point there isn't a way to make the above work.

If there are 10 people in the run group that last guy will likely be caught after the warmup lap midway through lap 2.


No one has yet addressed how or why it's necessary to have a window net if we need to stick our hands out of it.

[Tsurara]

There is no reason why this club should not allow open passing for the advanced run group.

EDIT: I was wrong, BMWCCA allows for passing anywhere with a point by, nevermind.

I am with Alex, it is impossible to point out of a window net and concentrate on driving at the same time.

I guess the bigger question is why are advanced group drivers not watching their mirrors and understanding when they should throw a pointby? Even in SCCA National races people watch the hell out of their mirrors. Are passing flags being thrown? It's been a while since I have run with COM, so I am a bit foggy about the flagging, but I would hope that would at least be done.

[rajito]

Charles mentioning the BMWCCA day makes me recall that we had this discussion a couple years ago:

http://comscc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=586

I think that might work well for COM. Nobody really mentioned any arguments against it in the other thread.

Raj

[agrabau]

I like it Raj. Along with a sticker I'll glue a rubber hand to my door sill with a finger up (I'll decide which one) It'll be a permanent invitation to pass.

It's cool. No one seems to want passing. I thought it was a good idea and I thought I'd check to see what the sentiment was.


Alex

[rajito]

It's cool. No one seems to want passing. I thought it was a good idea and I thought I'd check to see what the sentiment was.

It's not that "no one seems to want passing". I think we all want the most amount of unimpeded track time we can get. However, I echo the sentiment that passing without point-by's greatly increases the risks of an incident. No other club I've run with does this (other than bikes).

This will become more of an issue if COM runs more NHMS events next year as has been rumored. Doing something like what WMC did would free up congestion (by making the whole track a passing zone), while also ensuring that both the passer and passee are aware of the pass.

Sure, you'll still run into the odd ass-hat who won't let people by, but that is when you discuss it with control, who will have a talk with him/her.

Raj