Classes Revised for 2007

[nateh]

did I miss something? something more compelling that I have not noticed? torque?
...

Nate, any thoughts or feedback on my comments? do you need any clarification? Will you table all of our suggestions until the next board meeting?

Mickey -

Sorry not to have responded. A bit overwhelmed lately.

I've looked at the data. I do tend to factor in torque. I think that the Civic classifications are correct for the 2007 scheme.

I'm not the final authority, though. Feel free to propose a change to the board.

PS. I don't think there was ever a 2001 Civic Si (listed under SSC)
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/honda/civic/index.html

You're right!

- Nate

[Seven]

[quote="eastcoastbumps
Jeff, SP is a far reach for an out of the box STi or Evo. The STi is an Impreza, a model that comes in many trims: Outback, 2.5i, WRX, WRX TR, STi and STi Limited. You must view them all as they come from the factory and put all of them in stock classes. The STi shares very few parts with the WRX or base Impreza. You can't consider the STi a WRX built by the factory to ST specs. The same way you can't consider a WRX a 2.5i built to SP specs becuase it has a turbocharged motor. You also can't put a stock factory turbocharged car into SP just because the factory also makes an N/A version.

Jeff, can I run SSGT with an LS1 RX7? Its SSGT stock and I'm using a motor out of another SSGT car. [/quote]

I understand your example is a bit overstated for effect...however, I can suggest stock factory tuned cars may be best suited for SP class and the current rules already contemplate such a designation. The bottom-line is the bottom-line... the idea is to categorize cars according to performance levels. The STis in essentially stock trim seem to outperform all stock cars but the C5s. Some of the STis seem to be running in STGT for various reasons including (just a little bit) the desire to avoid the C5s as the STis are not competitive. Again, at a minimum the factory tuned "super-cars" should be bumped to an appropriate class to create competition from a variety of makes & models. The STis would mop-up in SSGT. The C5s would do the same in SSU. Ignoring these facts is unacceptable unless the club is willing to create classes where only one make is competitive. Alternate solutions should be explored.

[rajito]

The STis in essentially stock trim seem to outperform all stock cars but the C5s. Some of the STis seem to be running in STGT for various reasons including (just a little bit) the desire to avoid the C5s as the STis are not competitive.

We're running in STGT because we tinkered with our cars to make them quicker, and that's where we belong. It is not a desire to avoid other cars - SSU crown belonged to an STi the last couple years

Given the number of SSU/STGT cars that show up, I do not mind lumping the STi's/Evo's/C5's/Z06's/Vipers/McLaren F1's/Bugatti Veyron's/etc. together the way it is now. It will allow for finer granularity in the other, more populated classes.

Raj

[RyanC]

Jeff, I can't believe you figured out why we all ran in STGT; lawdy those Corvettes are SO scary! I feel SO much better now that I don't have to carry this deep, dark secret inside me... But wait, if we look at the results from this years time trials, one of those big scary cars ran in STGT, too! And not only that, a VIPER showed up too, and that has even bigger fangs! I guess we weren't as smart as we thought we were... which is probably why we are racing 4 door family sedans instead of 2 seat sportscars.

I apologize if my reply is a bit over the top, but I gotta tell you, if you're gonna read my mind, please get it right. I just really hate the letter 'U', and couldn't bear the thought to run in a class that contained it. 'G' hits the spot.

[eastcoastbumps]

In Jeff's defense, I was the one who said you (as in the STi guys) were running in ST so as not to have to compete against the Z06's.

[eastcoastbumps]

The STis in essentially stock trim seem to outperform all stock cars but the C5s. Some of the STis seem to be running in STGT for various reasons including (just a little bit) the desire to avoid the C5s as the STis are not competitive.

We're running in STGT because we tinkered with our cars to make them quicker, and that's where we belong. It is not a desire to avoid other cars - SSU crown belonged to an STi the last couple years

Given the number of SSU/STGT cars that show up, I do not mind lumping the STi's/Evo's/C5's/Z06's/Vipers/McLaren F1's/Bugatti Veyron's/etc. together the way it is now. It will allow for finer granularity in the other, more populated classes.

Raj

Raj, I've seen you show up with two sets of class letters. One for when the Z06's show up and one for when they don't.

[rajito]

Raj, I've seen you show up with two sets of class letters. One for when the Z06's show up and one for when they don't.

Right. I usually run SPA to give them a chance at a trophy. Excayooooooooooz me for being nice.

Raj

[Seven]

I apologize if my reply is a bit over the top, but I gotta tell you, if you're gonna read my mind, please get it right.

Ryan, your reply IS a bit over the top, I appreciate the apology, however it's not necessary. Fortunately, I have pretty thick skin If you reread my post I put a pretty large qualifier in my statement and I stand behind it.

Thanks Pete, I didn't want to pitch you under the STi bus. Hopefully you won't be excommunicated from the group!

Anyway, Pete made a valid point earlier that there are only so many classes and we shouldn't create more. I agree. However, there are currently (and admittedly always have been) some cars that stand apart from the rest of the SS cars in terms of track preparedness and speed. Historically these cars found their way to SSU. I am simply suggesting that the club consider enforcing the language in the current rules and evaluate whether it makes sense to bump certain limited production factory tuned cars out of SS and into classes that provide better competition.

I have no skin in this game as I am in SPA. I only argue to level the playing field toward the end of enhancing competition.

[zip4zat]

The best way to enhance competition to first get people to show up. I think the club recognizes this and is moving in the direction to serve this need. As it is I dont see all these uber cars showing up to a majority of events.

To your point of 'factory tuned cars being in SP? would you throw civic si into SP too? c'mon.

Trying to get the rules to appease everyone is a lost cause. Someone is always going to get left out. A lot of work and discussion has gone into the proposal brought forth, and I support the quantitative approach. Whether it is sufficient enough. thats still to be decided. I think your opinions are valued and understood. Since Im too lazy to come up with a better solution, I will put my trust in those that have already pulled their hair out over this.

If you are a slight underdog in your class, well thats just that much more motivation to show you are a better driver than the other guys car is fast. If you feel that there is no competition in your class move up to another class. At the level we are at there is a lot of opportunity to outdrive the other guy in a faster car.

[Seven]

The best way to enhance competition to first get people to show up. I think the club recognizes this and is moving in the direction to serve this need.

Agreed. I believe the "Best of N" method would be a good step toward this end for a particular segment of this club. However, nothing will do more toward increased participation than the selection of attractive track venues. 2007 looks VERY promising at this point.

As it is I dont see all these uber cars showing up to a majority of events.

To your point of 'factory tuned cars being in SP? would you throw civic si into SP too? c'mon.

Good comment, however I don't suggest this. I suggested that "CERTAIN [emphasis added] limited production factory tuned cars" should be subject to being bumped to ST.

Trying to get the rules to appease everyone is a lost cause. Someone is always going to get left out. A lot of work and discussion has gone into the proposal brought forth, and I support the quantitative approach. Whether it is sufficient enough. thats still to be decided. I think your opinions are valued and understood. Since Im too lazy to come up with a better solution, I will put my trust in those that have already pulled their hair out over this.

Fair enough. I'm just taking a different path and suggesting change to solicit opinions. It's been an interesting discussion...

If you are a slight underdog in your class, well thats just that much more motivation to show you are a better driver than the other guys car is fast. If you feel that there is no competition in your class move up to another class. At the level we are at there is a lot of opportunity to outdrive the other guy in a faster car.

I have always felt that lack of competition provides little satisfaction in victory. That's why so many of us are as concerned with how we performed AMONG classes as we are WITHIN classes. However, I feel it is the clubs responsibility to do what it can to assure competitiveness and not to rely upon the drivers to volunteer themselves out of non-competitive classes. I realize this is no small task.

Finally, we are not talking about "slight underdogs" here. I am speaking specifically of cars that far outpace others in their class. That's the whole point.

[eastcoastbumps]

Jeff, my biggest problem with bumping a stock STi into ST or SP, is that its not a limited production car. Subaru produces and sells as many as they can and will continue to do so in the future. You have to look beyond its name. It is not a mildly modified WRX as it does not share major components with the WRX. The motor, transmission, differentials, brakes, suspension and wheels are all very different and unique. You have to consider it a different car all together, rather than a mildly modified WRX.

There are several special breeds of STi that would qualify for an ST or SP bump, but none of them make it to the US shores. Subaru makes an STi RA (racing application) RA spec C (racing and competition) and S204. They come stripped down with no radio, no A/C, no ABS, no airbags, even bigger wheels (the spec C actually comes with steel wheels since Subaru knows the owner will be fitting the car with thier choice of custom wheel), better aero, ECU tweeks, titanium exhuast, etc. They are limited production and mildly modified. They are a perfect candidate for a bump over in class.





There are other cars that could be debated. For insance, the Z06. Its not limited production, but it is faster than a stock 'vette and factory tuned. The base model is already in SSU, so should the Z06 be bumped to ST? Is it fair to have them in the same class?

[nateh]

In my opinion, the terminology "limited production cars modified by the manufacturer or aftermarket companies" is impossible to adequately define. Perhaps a court might call it "unenforceably vague?"

I am going to propose that this clause be struck. Focus of discussion should be on moving specific car models from class to class. We stewards are simple-minded and need things to be clearly defined in order for us to function.

[brucesallen]

I hate it when I don't know to whom I am talking.
Who is Zip4zat? Eastcoast bumps?
Who do COMmers feel the need to be anonymous?

[RyanC]

Hey Bruce, maybe all that speed over the years warped your eyes; check the signatures! Eastcoastbumps is Pete, zip4zat is #749, aka Joe Lu. And I am Johnny Cash

[zip4zat]

sorry for the annonymity, you should know such things
-Joe Lu