Classing SP and P cars

[breakaway500]

We could eliminate all classes. Award trophys to the top 10 cars or so... That would be real simple. Probably not very popular though...

[brucesallen]

Tommy,
I think your car is perfect for and ST class. Maybe you can restore enough stockness to get out of SP. SP is an"All mods considered" class. As such, $$$ are important.

[mr2sc]

nah...I'd have to undo 20yrs and scrap many thousands $$$ of 'development'...the transplanted 2l drivetrain, the Quaife diff, the AP brakes, etc, etc, etc ...and then get smoked in those ‘stock’ classes because MR2 SCs are classed most uncompetitively there.

There was a long debate and multiple attempts at getting SC'd MR2s reclassed at the SS and ST levels as well.

It didn't go well, so I gave up, as did a handful of other MR2 SC owners at the time, realizing there was no competitive place for SC’d MR2s with COM (unless nobody else showed up in the class…been there, as we all have)

Consequently, in my case, I simply went ahead and modified it for the enjoyment of driving it…ending up in SPB, but no longer with any hope of being competitive with COM. But that’s ok...I just couldn't resist commenting when this issue came up yet again.

In hindsight, this is even more true today, with the new breed of very thoroughly prepped time-attack cars that are starting to proliferate SPB. Not much hope for a 25yr old dinosaur’s dynamics against these paddle-shifted, e-nanny equipped, winged wonders. Like I said, I have fun anyway, albeit a bit off the SPB pace.

If I want competitive thrills, I can drive someone else’s car at Lemons (an MR2 of course!)

[John F]

Tommy seemed to do quite well at his home track this year! He was running in the 3 car freight train with the 600+ hp GT40 and the twin turbo 911 and getting point-bys from everyone. He is classed OK in SPB. You might be off the pace in SPB against Mark's Atom, though.

[breakaway500]

I'm in PB.

[6PAK72]

The '72 TR6 might keep up with the MR2, but the Subies are just too much. Perhaps a class for EVO's and Subarus?

[mr2sc]

well, I may have kept up that day, and can muster a 1:55~1:56 in current tune, but the reality is that a well prepped Suby or EVO should easily run a tick over 1:50 (seen them), and any 6 cyl Porch in SPB should be even faster (seen them too)

Anyhow, like I said, at this point with the MR2, its all for the seat-time and the cameraderie...not for a trophy

[rwlbjr]

I know I'm not a member but here is my 2 cents. If you want it to be "fair" class cars by how much money has been spent on them. If you want to: have fun, drive fast, and be a member of a large club with diversity of cars and people. Make rules that are easy to understand, easy to police, and keep them the same year to year so people can built to them if they want to win.

[breakaway500]

It's all about fun anyways. If you are spending more than $20 to win a trophy,you are a HUGE fool. Just eliminate all classes, and where you finish is how you did! That's the final measure, if you are one to measure. All is fair in love,war and racing..

[tju-vette]

It's all about fun anyways. If you are spending more than $20 to win a trophy,you are a HUGE fool. Just eliminate all classes, and where you finish is how you did! That's the final measure, if you are one to measure. All is fair in love,war and racing..

I think it's foolish to make blanket statements like that. Surely it's about fun but if it were just about track time you can run a school with many different organizations. I think the fact that COM is a Time Trial based club makes a difference as it implies some level of competition. I'd hate to see anyone get so involved in it that the competitiveness ruins the fun they get from it or their relationships with friends & other drivers but competition can be more than just about a trophy.

The competitive class structure provides a way for drivers to measure themselves against others in (ideally) similarly prepared vehicles. You can certainly measure your own improvement as time passes by your own lap times but it's only natural to eventually wonder how you compare to the rest of the pack, that's where the classes come in. If you feel you've reached a limit in your own ability (i.e. running very consistent lap times for a given setup) you can then look at how you place in the class and determine what to do next. You might still have work to do on your own skills or decide to move up in class.

The OP was about a points based, NASA-like, classing structure, which I actually agree with. As long as there are classes there will likely be debate about how those classes are structured. Just because someone wants something different doesn't mean they're wrong for wanting it, especially if they continue to work within the current rule set. I think I'd be a good example of that. My car is only slightly modified, and all of its mods are suspension. Only one of those mods puts me in SP when I really feel its an underprepared ST car. I'd like to see either a rule change to allow that one mod in ST or a points based system where I only take on points for the mods I've made. Until one of those two things happen I'll continue to work within the SP rule set and hone my point by skills. Competitiion and fun do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I think Boltonite had a great suggestion for how to structure a proposal for phasing in a points based classing system, or at least seeing if it's feasible.

[mr2sc]

the bottom line when I was engaged in this debate was that it was an oversimplification whittling down all the SS and ST classes to merely 3 at the SP level...basing them merely on the number of holes in a engine.

If there were more than 3 SP levels, the formula could be displacement based, even taking into account certain specifics such as not lumping a 1.6l SC'd engine with a 180hp potential, against a 2.5l one with a 450hp potential.

Speaking of 2.5l turbo engines, something that always baffled me, is how some ruling had been made for a 944 Turbo S, and how these were somehow bumped up to SPA, despite having only 4 holes in the engine. Hmm...

Anyhow, I do appreciate the difficulty of populating more SP level classes, but I still do think that a more realistic criteria would be benficial, as well as perhaps promote the leap from ST to SP for some. Nevertheless, like I said earlier, it doesn't matter to me anymore, and I just enjoy what seat time I can with COM

[breakaway500]

I've been called a fool before
I drive on track for one reason: it is illegal to drive as fast as I want on public roads,and it is MUCH safer on track to drive fast. Running time trials is fun, and an accurate way to measure my progress.I am glad COM does this.It is nice to see how I fall amongst the other drivers,too,but maybe I am wrong in how I look at it. I see FTD as number one..and then the second fastest time is...well..second place,and so on and so forth. That's just the way I see things.It is all about the fastest lap,right?You run your best,and let the cards fall where they may. Classes are a way to try and bunch up a group of seemingly similar vehicles...but that is almost impossible today,unless you go to a totally SPEC car series,that have very specific rules and regulations.COM rules are very open and it is possible to build a car within the guidelines to dominate a specific class,driven properly.
I am sure there is a better system for classifying cars and drivers,but who is willing to put in the time and effort to implement this system,and keep it updated?
Until that time,COM rules for classes are adequate enough to keep cars safe,which, to me, is the most important reason to have any regulations.
If you desire close competition,based on the preparation of a drivers skills and equipment, SPEC series racing is where it's at.You build your car to these very specific guidelines and hone your driving skills. This is a true measure of ones abilities to compete on a level playing field. And,even then there will be...rule bending. Some will do anything for the win.

I shall remain the fool, and go out for the fun of it all.

[boltonite]

I am sure there is a better system ... but who is willing to put in the time and effort to implement this system, and keep it updated?

Exactly. While the current system may be flawed, no system is perfect and even "minor" tweaks take effort. That is not to say it cannot be done, but it does take effort.

Members can "ride-along" at the monthly meeting, bring a full-face helmet, a rose-tinted visor, thick skin, and a barf bag.

FF

[breakaway500]

A barf bag? I thought the food was excellent.The crab rangoons were just a bit off from my regular chinese eatery....

[brucesallen]

Speaking of 2.5l turbo engines, something that always baffled me, is how some ruling had been made for a 944 Turbo S, and how these were somehow bumped up to SPA, despite having only 4 holes in the engine. Hmm...
:

Tommy this is not true of the current rules. 944 distinction Removed last year.