First time I've ever heard a SE-R driver use that kind of language!!!
Too bad the VW driver didn't have an outside rear view mirror to use.
Spec Miata Action on YouTube
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Mark Swinehart
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Right? Where did I go wrong here 
Son, you and I need a sit down talk! Was that Gordon or Will in the #72 ITA driving by from the back of the pack?Mark Swinehart wrote:Another view of Joe DiMinno's wreck:
http://victorgangi.com/media/Memorial_D ... _crash.wmv
Last edited by mossaidis on Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That was me. 
When the I saw everyone fan out and go 7 wide as we crossed start/finish, I lifted. Several cars buzzed right by me and into the mess. I had no problem with my decision to give up position to save my sheetmetal. Where exactly the guys on the inside thought they were going to go when they reached the oval is beyond me. Anyway, that was either my 2nd or 3rd SCCA ITA race, and the previous few and one of the subsequent races were just as "exciting". The last 1/2 of the 2006 season at NHIS was significantly cleaner.
FYI, I was just behind and to the right to the "camera" car (BMW Z3) and behind the #86 Civic. I almost came to a stop and yielded to a few cars before a bunch of us made it through a relatively narrow opening near the outside wall at T1.
When the I saw everyone fan out and go 7 wide as we crossed start/finish, I lifted. Several cars buzzed right by me and into the mess. I had no problem with my decision to give up position to save my sheetmetal. Where exactly the guys on the inside thought they were going to go when they reached the oval is beyond me. Anyway, that was either my 2nd or 3rd SCCA ITA race, and the previous few and one of the subsequent races were just as "exciting". The last 1/2 of the 2006 season at NHIS was significantly cleaner.
FYI, I was just behind and to the right to the "camera" car (BMW Z3) and behind the #86 Civic. I almost came to a stop and yielded to a few cars before a bunch of us made it through a relatively narrow opening near the outside wall at T1.
96 Miata #72 SC
PRA 4
PRA 4
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enjoythemusic
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Point well taken and perhaps am being way too quick to tell considering the conditions from this weekends event. Maybe the CC and rain really messed everyone up so lots of folks really got bumpered around? It was a bad combination for a race. Add to that, the talk in the pits from various Miata folks seem to echo what i have typed and it seems some felt bumping was just part of the action (color me a bit taken aback, but if that is their known rules of enguagement...). So yes, my experience is limited, listened to what quite a few others at the track were saying... and perhaps i should have waited before painting ANY brush or simply echoing what others said.WillM wrote:EnjoyTheMusic, for someone who has posted and commented in person about how they detest stereotypes and how they have been unfairly subjected to such stereotypes in other clubs (due to your "saloon" car), I'm shocked to see you use such a wide brush to singularly paint the personalities of such a diverse group of people.
What is your take about the SCCA Miata classification? DO you feel there is more or less bumping on average than in other classifications? Do Miata guys take bumping as a normal thing and ok, or is it highly frowned upon? Am curious what the rules of enguagement are versus the GCR.
Perhaps am enjoying the respect of racing room the open wheel guys provide and how before the race on Sunday with such bad conditions we all got together to be sure everyone was on the same page to avoid any very bad situations at T1. Agree it is indeed AMATEUR racing, yet there are limits between inexperience and intentionally bumping and pushing others out of the way to gain a position. Of course even professionals like M. Schumacher has been know to pull boneheaded stunts in F1.
BTW, that Greg Amy video is excellent.
Last edited by enjoythemusic on Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Amy did a great job of moving up thru the entire field in one lap, no doubt. But how many cars did he "rub" to get it done?
The GCR states "no contact allowed". Either nobody reads the GCR or nobody cares about the rules. Makes you wonder how many other rules are disregarded. I had a conversation with Doug Macormic the RE for NER and discussed the amount of contact in IT and SM. His reply was "it's not that bad" then he proceeded to tell me stories about himself instead of listening to my thoughts. I was trying to convey the idea that the level of allowed contact is keeping some people away.
Both Will and I did some IT races last year, it was quite an experience. Haven't made it back out yet this year, but will soon.
The GCR states "no contact allowed". Either nobody reads the GCR or nobody cares about the rules. Makes you wonder how many other rules are disregarded. I had a conversation with Doug Macormic the RE for NER and discussed the amount of contact in IT and SM. His reply was "it's not that bad" then he proceeded to tell me stories about himself instead of listening to my thoughts. I was trying to convey the idea that the level of allowed contact is keeping some people away.
Both Will and I did some IT races last year, it was quite an experience. Haven't made it back out yet this year, but will soon.
Gordon Andrade
#10 Super C MX-5
#10 Super C MX-5
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enjoythemusic
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Gordon,
You make excellent points. Amy did relatively lightly tap the front bumper to other's rear bumper, which by word of GCR means illegal. What if one of those taps caused a spin to the car in front of Amy?
EXAMPLE:
This past weekend there were stories of the big Porsche mishap was caused by someone tapping the rear of one of the Porsches and that caused it to go upward to the right wall... And so there went another Porsche... And BTW one of those cars is basically totalled all because, as i understand it, someone tapped their front bumper to someone's rear bumper.
How about the drivers who sideswipe to nudge their way though when they know damn well there is not enough room for them to really pass? Maybe i am being a bit retentive here because the daughter of one of my open wheel friends in the pit next to me... She is a relative newbie driving a Miata and looks to be a by the rules safe driver, yet coming out of 2b someone sideswiped her Miata into the right wall. Of course what matters is that no one gets serious hurt, yet the GCR says to allow racing room or some such. Obviously that was not being followed from what she said to me as the other driver nudged her (and have no reason to doubt her). She did not really know all the rules so i kept quiet, though she did agree the CC config for racing should not be done and the rain surely made matters worse. The sheer lack of grip coming out of 2b was bad even on brand new Hoosier wets in my FC.
The good news is that we are discussing this. Ok, so perhaps this should be on the SCCA discussion board or some such and not here. In the end, from what you say, SCCA marshals are obviously not enforcing a written rule in the GCR. Of course it is up to the classification folks at the end of a race to enter their protests, so they are also at fault for not placing their protests at the appropriate time. You darn well know us open wheel guys would not put up with sideswiping crap, bad things happen too easily and fast that way.
You make excellent points. Amy did relatively lightly tap the front bumper to other's rear bumper, which by word of GCR means illegal. What if one of those taps caused a spin to the car in front of Amy?
EXAMPLE:
This past weekend there were stories of the big Porsche mishap was caused by someone tapping the rear of one of the Porsches and that caused it to go upward to the right wall... And so there went another Porsche... And BTW one of those cars is basically totalled all because, as i understand it, someone tapped their front bumper to someone's rear bumper.
How about the drivers who sideswipe to nudge their way though when they know damn well there is not enough room for them to really pass? Maybe i am being a bit retentive here because the daughter of one of my open wheel friends in the pit next to me... She is a relative newbie driving a Miata and looks to be a by the rules safe driver, yet coming out of 2b someone sideswiped her Miata into the right wall. Of course what matters is that no one gets serious hurt, yet the GCR says to allow racing room or some such. Obviously that was not being followed from what she said to me as the other driver nudged her (and have no reason to doubt her). She did not really know all the rules so i kept quiet, though she did agree the CC config for racing should not be done and the rain surely made matters worse. The sheer lack of grip coming out of 2b was bad even on brand new Hoosier wets in my FC.
The good news is that we are discussing this. Ok, so perhaps this should be on the SCCA discussion board or some such and not here. In the end, from what you say, SCCA marshals are obviously not enforcing a written rule in the GCR. Of course it is up to the classification folks at the end of a race to enter their protests, so they are also at fault for not placing their protests at the appropriate time. You darn well know us open wheel guys would not put up with sideswiping crap, bad things happen too easily and fast that way.
From what I heave heard, SRF and the production cars both had their turn being the bad boys. In SRF, they started black flagging and sending people home for contact, which brought an abrupt end to the problem. You wouldn't have to be sent away too many times before you got the message.
In the production cars I think the cost of fiberglass body parts fixed the problem.
Now people use the plastic bumpers with no harm shown, so I guess it is OK.
I saw a poll asking how much contact was acceptable. Well bump drafting is OK so there is one. How about a little nudge in a corner? yeah that happens, that's OK. And so on.
In the production cars I think the cost of fiberglass body parts fixed the problem.
Now people use the plastic bumpers with no harm shown, so I guess it is OK.
I saw a poll asking how much contact was acceptable. Well bump drafting is OK so there is one. How about a little nudge in a corner? yeah that happens, that's OK. And so on.
Gordon Andrade
#10 Super C MX-5
#10 Super C MX-5
I think that intentional contact should be not allowed, but in wheel to wheel racing, contact is going to happen regardless, whether it be from a dumb move or whatever. I've been in lots of close quarter situations and sometimes it really is unavoidable. I think you are silly to go in to wheel to wheel racing without expecting this to happen.
Please please please understand that I say this with no malice towards HPDE, but if you are concerned about contact, please stick with HPDE events.
Please please please understand that I say this with no malice towards HPDE, but if you are concerned about contact, please stick with HPDE events.
Last edited by Tsurara on Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charles K.
#13 NER SCCA T2 Mitsubishi Evo 9
#13 NER SCCA T2 Mitsubishi Evo 9
I have to admit I'm a little bit surprised that people mention contact during wheel to wheel racing as something that should not happen.
This isn't HPDE's or time trials. You're out there duking it out with other cars for position on track. Open wheel cars shy away from contact more than bumpered cars because of the damage risk. How often do you see nudging in Indy or F1?
Closed wheel cars have bumpers. The intent of those things is clear from the name. While I'm not advocating for wholesale carnage, bump drafting and a little bit of bump and grind for positioning is not a huge sin. Look at NASCAR or Touring Car championships.
With wheel to wheel racing, especially in non open-wheel cars, it's only a matter of time before contact is made. Whether it's the bonehead who divebombs and loses control, or people getting squeezed into turn 1 at the first lap, it will happen. Not comfortable with that idea? That's what time trials and HPDE's are for.
Raj
This isn't HPDE's or time trials. You're out there duking it out with other cars for position on track. Open wheel cars shy away from contact more than bumpered cars because of the damage risk. How often do you see nudging in Indy or F1?
Closed wheel cars have bumpers. The intent of those things is clear from the name. While I'm not advocating for wholesale carnage, bump drafting and a little bit of bump and grind for positioning is not a huge sin. Look at NASCAR or Touring Car championships.
With wheel to wheel racing, especially in non open-wheel cars, it's only a matter of time before contact is made. Whether it's the bonehead who divebombs and loses control, or people getting squeezed into turn 1 at the first lap, it will happen. Not comfortable with that idea? That's what time trials and HPDE's are for.
Raj
#66 SuperSlowGT
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z
I agree with you both, it is racing and I expect contact to happen, and it will. But there is a big difference between accidental contact and pushing your way through a pack. I think there is also a difference between the guy who has a body shop for a sponsor and one who will be paying out of his own pocket.
2 examples
Endurance racers tend to avoid contact, because they are motivated to finish the whole race not just the next corner and they have time to be patient.
vintage guys NEVER have contact or it is out for a year then probation for a year.
Just because you have bumpers doesn't mean you have to use them. Better drivers will tell you it is always faster to go around rather than thru. You are supposed to be in control of your car.
It is not a matter of comfort, the fact is if someone mashes up my car I am out for the season (at least). I have no problem racing in close quarters.
2 examples
Endurance racers tend to avoid contact, because they are motivated to finish the whole race not just the next corner and they have time to be patient.
vintage guys NEVER have contact or it is out for a year then probation for a year.
Just because you have bumpers doesn't mean you have to use them. Better drivers will tell you it is always faster to go around rather than thru. You are supposed to be in control of your car.
It is not a matter of comfort, the fact is if someone mashes up my car I am out for the season (at least). I have no problem racing in close quarters.
Gordon Andrade
#10 Super C MX-5
#10 Super C MX-5
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enjoythemusic
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Grippy,
Excellent post! Agree with your post above as sure contact will happen. It is amateur racing and all that. There is an obvious difference between small taps and kamikaze moves or intentional sideswipes to push someone out of the way (which is what happened to the Miata gal in the pit next to me).
Of course there is no way to completely eliminate incidental contact or if someone makes a driving error and things happen. i am referring to purposeful contact to gain an advantage that causes damage to a car (like a sideswipe or kamikaze move when no way there was enough room to properly make a pass). As you said, "...there is a big difference between accidental contact and pushing your way through a pack."
Excellent post! Agree with your post above as sure contact will happen. It is amateur racing and all that. There is an obvious difference between small taps and kamikaze moves or intentional sideswipes to push someone out of the way (which is what happened to the Miata gal in the pit next to me).
Of course there is no way to completely eliminate incidental contact or if someone makes a driving error and things happen. i am referring to purposeful contact to gain an advantage that causes damage to a car (like a sideswipe or kamikaze move when no way there was enough room to properly make a pass). As you said, "...there is a big difference between accidental contact and pushing your way through a pack."
I think it is very unfair to be judemental and make negative statements until you have run witha group of drivers for a number of races. I have run most of the ITA races in NER this year and presonally think most of the entrants are quite sane and comfortable to race wheel to wheel with.
I have raced with the ITA group at both Limerock and NHIS in the dry and in the rain and I think it is good clean racing.
Do you get tapped ocasionally, yes. Is it usually intentional, No! I got bumped fairly hard going into three this past Saturday. I thought it was interesting as driver of the car that hit me came over later and offered his apology. The truth was I was trying a new approach going into three, downshifted two gears by mistake, checked up, and created a situation in traffic that caused the BMW to hit me!
If you think you can race wheel to wheel and not be in a position at any second to damage or possible destroy your car, think again. S--t happpens when you make the choice to race.
I have raced with the ITA group at both Limerock and NHIS in the dry and in the rain and I think it is good clean racing.
Do you get tapped ocasionally, yes. Is it usually intentional, No! I got bumped fairly hard going into three this past Saturday. I thought it was interesting as driver of the car that hit me came over later and offered his apology. The truth was I was trying a new approach going into three, downshifted two gears by mistake, checked up, and created a situation in traffic that caused the BMW to hit me!
If you think you can race wheel to wheel and not be in a position at any second to damage or possible destroy your car, think again. S--t happpens when you make the choice to race.
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